The scriptures are hard to understand

[QuestioningMind]

You're making some pretty big assumptions here. Have you studied the way Islam works BTW? I am certain they did not experience anything like what I'm talking about. But, nice try.

It's no bigger an assumption than the one you make when you claim they did NOT have an experience in which they felt that God was showing Himself to them. Would you sacrifice your life for a God that you didn't feel had shown Himself to you? If not, why would you assume that anyone else would?

You're certain... you have absolute faith that these terrorists did NOT have such an experience. I'm certain... I have absolute faith that these terrorists DID have such an experience. We can't both be right, so our respective faith on the matter is clearly not a reliable path to the truth.

 

[74x12]

Would you sacrifice your life for a God that you didn't feel had shown Himself to you? If not, why would you assume that anyone else would?

You're certain... you have absolute faith that these terrorists did NOT have such an experience. I'm certain... I have absolute faith that these terrorists DID have such an experience. We can't both be right, so our respective faith on the matter is clearly not a reliable path to the truth.

When you're indoctrinated enough from a young age in any kind of belief system; you'll gladly sacrifice your life. Or at least most people will. It's not even necessarily thanks to religion at all. Take a look at kamikazi pilots in WW2. (Not the best example since they did believe in reincarnation most likely) But how about brainwashed Hitler youth who fought to death towards the end of the war even though it was hopeless? The list goes on.

All terrorists need is someone telling them that they'll be taken care of on the other side. Then mix that in with a lot of anger and propaganda and you'll have yourself a terrorist. It's really not that hard actually.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Nope, you are wrong, once again. Salvation is achieved between God and the individual. What occurs between them is not observable. Yes, God makes it very clear in the NT how to achieve this.

Yes, you've made it very clear that's what YOU believe. Unfortunately the scriptures aren't so clear and easy to understand that EVERYONE agrees with you. That's why there are there are plenty of Christians who claim that they CAN judge if others are acting in a way that will or will not earn them salvation.

Honestly, how can you keep maintaining that the fundamentals are so easy to understand when wars have been fought over what those fundamentals are? When there are Catholics who claim that Protestants are all going to hell and Baptists who claim that both Catholics and Protestants are going to hell? If it WAS really so easy to understand, so many people wouldn't be getting it wrong.

 

[Brickjectivity]

But according to Judaism, it is accomplishing it's function without any problems.

Yes I do not disagree now you point that out. It kinda stinks to be us sometimes looking like philistines with a plague inducing stolen ark. I think though that our suffering is nearly over. The box goes wherever it wants though.

 

[QuestioningMind]

When you're indoctrinated enough from a young age in any kind of belief system; you'll gladly sacrifice your life. Or at least most people will. It's not even necessarily thanks to religion at all. Take a look at kamikazi pilots in WW2. (Not the best example since they did believe in reincarnation most likely) But how about brainwashed Hitler youth who fought to death towards the end of the war even though it was hopeless? The list goes on.

All terrorists need is someone telling them that they'll be taken care of on the other side. Then mix that in with a lot of anger and propaganda and you'll have yourself a terrorist. It's really not that hard actually.

Yes, they are indoctrinated at a young age to have FAITH in that belief system. They don't use verifiable EVIDENCE to convince their youth, they tell them it's a matter of FAITH. Kamikazi pilots had FAITH that what they were doing was right. Hitler youth who fought to death even though it was hopeless had FAITH that regardless of the odds their efforts would prevail. The evidence was there that they didn't stand a chance, so they had to rely on FAITH in order to believe that they would win.

SURELY you can agree that FAITH is NOT a reliable path to truth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, they are indoctrinated at a young age to have FAITH in that belief system. They don't use verifiable EVIDENCE to convince their youth, they tell them it's a matter of FAITH. Kamikazi pilots had FAITH that what they were doing was right. Hitler youth who fought to death even though it was hopeless had FAITH that regardless of the odds their efforts would prevail. The evidence was there that they didn't stand a chance, so they had to rely on FAITH in order to believe that they would win.

SURELY you can agree that FAITH is NOT a reliable path to truth.

Rational thought is the enemy of faith. Rather than rational thought I am betting that you will meet cognitive dissonance. Any takers?

 

[Kenny]

Of course not, I would have thought you would know that by my reply. It just sounded like you were implying you understood them all. No offense meant if I misunderstood you.

your comment did throw me for a loop

Ken, Even the scriptures that seem to be black and white are disagreed about by many people.

John 3:16 is pretty clear. I think if anyone disagrees it would only be because they are coming from a perspective that the words penned are not inspired God.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

your comment did throw me for a loop


John 3:16 is pretty clear. I think if anyone disagrees it would only be because they are coming from a perspective that the words penned are not inspired God.

Ok - I'll give you an example. Lots of people believe in the Trinity - right? Maybe even you (I think so, but I'm not sure until you say so). But I don't - I think it is a false doctrine. The scriptures are so clear to me because I believe God has given me understanding on it. Yet both sides think they see it so clearly.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Ok, you say, You think some of the scriptures are difficult to understand.

As for me I find all scriptures easy to understand.
There is what is written in the scriptures and there is the spirit of the scriptures.

For example, go to the book of Mark 13
What you will read is what is written down.

Now for the spirit, in the book of Mark 13 Christ Jesus has given what the Blasphemy of the Spirit is.
And when it will happen and who can commit it.
Can you find the spirit of the word that Christ Jesus is saying in Mark 13 ?

What I mean is some scripture is difficult to understand correctly until and unless God reveals the truth to you. For instance we have discussed previously regarding being born again and what it means. We are in disagreement. We can't both be right.

Some believe in the Trinity - I don't - I think it is a false doctrine. If you believe in the Trinity - we both can't be right. If it is so easy, why is there so much disagreement?

If you think you understand, and can explain all scripture, then I know you are seriously dis-allusioned.

 

[Faithofchristian]

What I mean is some scripture is difficult to understand correctly until and unless God reveals the truth to you. For instance we have discussed previously regarding being born again and what it means. We are in disagreement. We can't both be right.

Some believe in the Trinity - I don't - I think it is a false doctrine. If you believe in the Trinity - we both can't be right. If it is so easy, why is there so much disagreement?

If you think you understand, and can explain all scripture, then I know you are seriously dis-allusioned.

That's what you say, All scriptures are easy to understand, If a person let's God do the leading throughout the scriptures.

Why is there so much disagreement, it's all because people would rather follow what their Pastor's Preachers will tell them.
Instead of letting God do the speaking throughout his word That's why there's so much disagreement.

Why do you suppose many times Christ Jesus has said ( Whoso readeth, let him understand)
Therefore do you understand, When Christ Jesus spoke about, When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place" Matthew 24:15
Exactly how does this fit into the book of Revelation. Can you explain it.

Can you explain exactly what the blasphemy of the Spirit is in Mark 13

Christ Jesus foretold what the Blasphemy of the Spirit is, and when it will happen and by who can commit it.
Can you go to the book of Mark 13 and explain all of this, What Christ Jesus has given.
If not, but you say I'm dis-allusioned, But yet you can not explain, What's up with all that.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yet people are capable of having faith in virtually anything. Making faith a terribly unreliable path to actual truth. I can guarantee you that the morons who flew planes into buildings filled with people back on 9/11 had tremendous faith that that is precisely what God wanted them to do. And if they could be WRONG in THEIR faith, then surely YOU could be WRONG about YOUR faith. The fact that you've convinced yourself that you should have faith in YOUR faith is no different that the 9/11 terrorists having convinced themselves that they should have faith in THEIR faith. Of course they had faith in a DIFFERENT god and faith in a DIFFERENT holy book. Unfortunately the only 'evidence' either of you have that your god and holy book are genuine is that FAITH thing again... which we've already established is NOT a reliable means of ascertaining the truth.

FAR better to use actual verifiable evidence that requires no faith at all for determining reality. Any claim that requires you to resort to faith is a claim unworthy of consideration.

QuestioningMind - Hope you don't mind if I jump in here.
I think I agree that FAITH itself does NOT prove you have the truth. As many of your examples show.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the Bible isn't the word of God, or that it doesn't contain the truth. The thing is once you have found the truth, it does take FAITH to please God. Without FAITH you won't obey what he has said in his word.

Although - if you pray and seek God with FAITH, he can and will show himself to be very REAL to you. He has done that for me many times. So I have no doubts. So, in this sense FAITH can be a means of ascertaining the truth (at least as far as the existence of God is concerned).

 

[Kenny]

Ok - I'll give you an example. Lots of people believe in the Trinity - right? Maybe even you (I think so, but I'm not sure until you say so). But I don't - I think it is a false doctrine. The scriptures are so clear to me because I believe God has given me understanding on it. Yet both sides think they see it so clearly.

Yes... I will agree that there are many position on certain items. So, with that in mind, we could say we are both correct.

I will always give people the right to have a different viewpoint on the position of Trinity or Godhead. Even if you are wrong.

 

[QuestioningMind]

QuestioningMind - Hope you don't mind if I jump in here.
I think I agree that FAITH itself does NOT prove you have the truth. As many of your examples show.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the Bible isn't the word of God, or that it doesn't contain the truth. The thing is once you have found the truth, it does take FAITH to please God. Without FAITH you won't obey what he has said in his word.

Although - if you pray and seek God with FAITH, he can and will show himself to be very REAL to you. He has done that for me many times. So I have no doubts. So, in this sense FAITH can be a means of ascertaining the truth (at least as far as the existence of God is concerned).

Yet, if the 9/11 terrorists used the EXACT same method... that is they prayed and sought out God with FAITH and were convinced that God showed Himself to be very real to them. So real in fact that they believed that He wanted them to sacrifice themselves for God's greater glory. This is an example of people using FAITH to ascertain the TRUTH. In this example, do YOU believe that faith was a reliable means of determining the truth? DID God want these men to fly planes into buildings filled with people?

You just admitted that FAITH does NOT prove you have the truth, which is another way of saying that FAITH is NOT a reliable path to truth. What you're saying is that FAITH worked in MY case (for which we have no evidence other than your word - just like we have no evidence that the terrorists actually communed with God, other than their word that they did). That's like saying that flipping a coin is a RELIABLE path to the truth. Let's say we ask what is 1+1. I flip a coin, heads means that 1+1=2 and tails means that 1+1=3. If I flip the coin and it comes up heads (1+1=2) the correct answer, can I then conclude that flipping a coin is a RELIABLE path to the truth? NO, because the next time I flip the coin it has a 50/50 chance of coming up tails.

Lastly, if a terrorist is capable of using faith to convince themselves of something that is not true, how can you be absolutely certain that you aren't ALSO using faith to convince yourself of something that is not true? Clearly a person can use faith to convince themselves of virtually ANYTHING. How can you be certain that your faith hasn't caused you to believe in something that isn't true? You say that God has shown Himself to you many times, that's why you have no doubts. But OBVIOUSLY the terrorists ALSO felt that God had shown Himself to them many times... they were so very certain of it that they were willing to bet their lives on it. This suggests that using FAITH can cause people to have experiences that convince them that they are communicating with God when they actually are NOT. How can you be so certain that you're immune from this phenomenon?

 

[74x12]

Yes, they are indoctrinated at a young age to have FAITH in that belief system. They don't use verifiable EVIDENCE to convince their youth, they tell them it's a matter of FAITH. Kamikazi pilots had FAITH that what they were doing was right. Hitler youth who fought to death even though it was hopeless had FAITH that regardless of the odds their efforts would prevail. The evidence was there that they didn't stand a chance, so they had to rely on FAITH in order to believe that they would win.

SURELY you can agree that FAITH is NOT a reliable path to truth.

Well now you're expanding the concept of faith. I agree with that. Even you have faith whether you want to admit it or not. Faith is simply trust in something or someone. So that's all it is. You could have faith in a cause or an idea.

You seem to have the idea that the only way people will be martyrs is because they must have had some profound spiritual experience. But the fact is that many people willingly die for many reasons. There are suicides all the time. Just because people died for their faith does not alone prove they had any real reason for that faith in the first place.

True faith is not placed in vain. Faith not misplaced is answerable like when Elijah prayed and fire came down on the sacrifice. That's my point. People don't have to wait until they die to know the truth about God or the scriptures.

 

[Desert Snake]

your comment did throw me for a loop


John 3:16 is pretty clear. I think if anyone disagrees it would only be because they are coming from a perspective that the words penned are not inspired God.

John 3:36 is a good verse..

 

[74x12]

God will not give anyone the ability to understand all the scriptures easily right now. That's because we as humans become too proud if we have too much knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up as the KJV says. And even Paul had to endure a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of satan just to keep him humble because of the great revelations he received. Do any of us want to pay the price? Be careful before you decide. I'm not saying I want a thorn in the flesh myself. I don't know about the rest of you Christians.

Secondly, some of the greatest and most powerful revelations are hidden with God and only come through suffering or grief. God will show those who pay the extra price revelations more abundantly. They say that John was on the isle of Patmos after being tortured nearly to death when he saw the visions in the book of Revelation. So I will not say that the revelations of God are easy. Not so. Because the battle is real, the enemy is real and the fight is not easy. Think of all the suffering and pain the prophets and the apostles endured to even write these scriptures down. Probably the greatest revelation itself is Jesus on the cross and that's suffering and pain.

 

[Segev Moran]

Although I agree that historical context is very important; overall what you're saying is an atheist's viewpoint. Thanks for the input though. I'm glad you're not like many atheists who believe the scriptures are completely worthless. The scriptures at the very least have historical value wouldn't you say?

Atheism is not a POV.. its simply not believing GOD is a real thing.
I share that belief but i cannot deny the fact that the belief in a God (and mostly Monotheistic god) was a huge stepping stone for humans as a society.
The answer i gave you is actually the way to approach the Hebrew bible when studying the Oral Tora.

(In a very simplified way) this is the basics of learning the Hebrew bible:

Each word has its literal meaning.
Each word can be interpreted with ALL its meanings.
Each word have NO scoring in the original texts, so the word can be interpreted in any possible scoring
Each word have a numerical value
Each word should be treated on its own or in its context

There are many more things to understand, but start with that.

An example will be:

בראשית ברא אלוהים

This sentence (in the beginning god created) can be interpreted in the following ways (and many more):

so the sentence can be interpreted like that (for example):

בראשית ברא אלוהים
At the beginning god created

or

בראשית, ברא אלוהים
First, created powers

beyond that, each character in each word has a meaning and so on.

 

[Segev Moran]

Although I agree that historical context is very important; overall what you're saying is an atheist's viewpoint. Thanks for the input though. I'm glad you're not like many atheists who believe the scriptures are completely worthless. The scriptures at the very least have historical value wouldn't you say?

I wouldn't historical value as in written histroy, rather history value as in humans cultural history.
The fact is that we have the religious scriptures, so they are a huge part of humanity whether i like it or not

 

[TrueBeliever37]

That's what you say, All scriptures are easy to understand, If a person let's God do the leading throughout the scriptures.

Why is there so much disagreement, it's all because people would rather follow what their Pastor's Preachers will tell them.
Instead of letting God do the speaking throughout his word That's why there's so much disagreement.

Why do you suppose many times Christ Jesus has said ( Whoso readeth, let him understand)
Therefore do you understand, When Christ Jesus spoke about, When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place" Matthew 24:15
Exactly how does this fit into the book of Revelation. Can you explain it.

Can you explain exactly what the blasphemy of the Spirit is in Mark 13

Christ Jesus foretold what the Blasphemy of the Spirit is, and when it will happen and by who can commit it.
Can you go to the book of Mark 13 and explain all of this, What Christ Jesus has given.
If not, but you say I'm dis-allusioned, But yet you can not explain, What's up with all that.

I think I can explain some of the things you asked about. But Paul said if we can understand all mysteries and prophecy, and have faith so we could move a mountain, if we don't have the love of God we are nothing. The idea is not to show, that look here I know more than you do, but to help others find the salvation of their souls. When we are explaining things from the scriptures it needs to be from a standpoint of love, not trying to prove we know more than they do. (Not trying to point any fingers, just telling how I feel about it.)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yes... I will agree that there are many position on certain items. So, with that in mind, we could say we are both correct.

I will always give people the right to have a different viewpoint on the position of Trinity or Godhead. Even if you are wrong.

None of the apostles ever taught a trinity. The word is nowhere mentioned in the scriptures. Never did they say there were 3 persons in the Godhead.