The resurrection of Jesus.

[sniper762]

all of the 4 gospels say the same in reference to the time he was in the grave. if not, please show me otherwise

 

[javajo]

For me, the many prophecies about Jesus in the OT and the fulfillment of them in the NT makes it more than credible. I don't know what more proof there could be than all those prophecies coming true. No mere man could set all that up. So for me, I believe it is true, but that is my conclusion.

 

[fallingblood]

all of the 4 gospels say the same in reference to the time he was in the grave. if not, please show me otherwise

Have you read the four accounts? Here is why your'e wrong:


Mark 10:33-34- 33 We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."

Mark 8:31- 31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

Matthew 16:21 -21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 17:23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life." And the disciples were filled with grief.

Matthew 20:19 and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

Mark 9:31- because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise."

Luke 9:22- And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

Luke 18:33- On the third day he will rise again

Luke 24:7- The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.

Luke 24:46- He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day

Acts 10:40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

1 Corinthians 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures


So why are these verses less accurate? And can you show anywhere else where your claim is true? Or is it not true that it is only in Matthew?

 

[sniper762]

Mathew 27:57-28:20
On the even of the day of crucifixion Pilate releases the body of Jesus to Jesus’ disciple, Joseph of Aramathea.
Joseph laid the body of Jesus in his own new tomb and rolled a stone to the door. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting against the sepulcher.
The day after the crucifixion the Chief priests and Pharisees sealed the stone and set a watch over the tomb.
At dawn of the first day of the week , Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulcher. There was a great earthquake and an angel of the lord descended from heaven, rolled away the stone and sat upon it. The watchmen became as dead men. The angel told the women that Jesus was not there, but had risen. He told them to come in and see where Jesus had lain. He told them to go and tell his disciples that he had risen from the dead and had gone to Galilee, where there they shall see him. While in route to tell the disciples, Jesus met them, they held his feet and worshipped him. Jesus then told them to tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee.
Mark 15:42-16:20
On the even of the day of crucifixion, Pilate releases the body of Jesus to Joseph of Aramathea.
Joseph laid Jesus in a tomb and rolled a stone unto the door, while Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James, the less and of Joses and Salome beheld.
At dawn, the first day of the week , the two Mary’s came to the sepulcher with sweet spices to anoint the body of Jesus. They wondered amongst themselves who would roll the stone away from the door for them but found that it was already rolled away.
Luke 23:50-24-53
On the day of the crucifixion, Joseph of Aramathea took the body of Jesus down and laid him in a new tomb.
On the first day of the week, early in the morning, the women that came with Jesus from Galilee, bringing the spices which they had prepared and certain others with them came to the sepulcher. They found the stone rolled away. They entered the tomb and saw two men in shining garments who told them that Jesus had risen. The women, Mary Magdalene, Joanna and Mary, the mother of James and other women that were with them returned from the sepulcher and told the eleven disciples and all the rest what they had observed and heard.



John 19:38-21:25
On the day of the crucifixion, Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple, but secretly for fear of the Jews, and Nicodemus took the body of Jesus and laid him in a sepulcher in the garden near where Jesus was crucified.
The first day of the week , early in the morning(3 days after the crucifixion), Mary Magdalene came to the sepulcher and saw the stone rolled away. She ran to Peter and the other disciples to tell them. Peter and another disciple ran to the sepulcher, the other outrunning Peter, arriving first to the sepulcher looked in and saw the clothes that Jesus wore.

ALL OF THESE DETAILED ACCOUNTS SAY THAT HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE CROSS AND PLACED IN THE TOMB ON THE EVENING JUST PRIOR TO THE SABBOTH (FRIDAY), HE WAS IN THE TOMB ONLY A COUPLE OF HOURS THAT DAY WHICH CANNOT BE COUNTED AS 1 DAY AND 1 NIGHT.
HE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT AND DAY OF THE SABBOTH (SATURDAY), WHICH ENDED AT APP. SUNSET OF THAT SATURDAY. THAT’S ONE NIGHT AND ONE DAY
HE WAS FOUND TO HAVE RISEN BEFORE DAWN ON THE DAY AFTER THE SABBOTH (SUNDAY) THAT WAS THE 2ND NIGHT
ALL TOTAL= 1 DAY AND TWO NIGHTS

 

[Autodidact]

triple post

 

[Autodidact]

For me, the many prophecies about Jesus in the OT and the fulfillment of them in the NT makes it more than credible. I don't know what more proof there could be than all those prophecies coming true. No mere man could set all that up. So for me, I believe it is true, but that is my conclusion.

That's weird, because Jesus didn't fulfill the OT prophecies about the Messiah. The only ones He did "fulfill" are pure cheating--they went back and wrote the prophecy in the NT after the things already happened.

Here's a few:

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4)
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

from here.

And, importantly, the messiah is a man, not a God.

And yet you're Christian. Again, it's your perfect right, but why would you base your religion on something that is simply not true?

 

[Autodidact]

double post.

 

[javajo]

HI! No, he did not fulfill ALL the Messianic Prophecies, yet. And, as I said its just my personal belief from my experience in study. For me, I don't think they knew enough to write in all the stuff to make it seem like prophecy, or that a man could manipulate it so. Like, Jesus could not manipulate that he would be sold for 30 pieces of silver that would be cast on the temple floor and used to buy a potters field. Or that not a bone would be broken, his clothes gambled for, etc. 27 prophecies fulfilled the 24hrs surrounding his death alone. And these written hundreds of years before by many different authors. For me, and only for me, I am not trying to convince anyone here, I am just saying, that from what all I have learned it is more than good enough for me. That's all, its good enough for me, I don't wish to debate about it cuz ppl can contend for ever over it and never agree on anything. Its just my personal belief. Thanks!

 

[Autodidact]

HI! No, he did not fulfill ALL the Messianic Prophecies, yet. And, as I said its just my personal belief from my experience in study. For me, I don't think they knew enough to write in all the stuff to make it seem like prophecy, or that a man could manipulate it so. Like, Jesus could not manipulate that he would be sold for 30 pieces of silver that would be cast on the temple floor and used to buy a potters field. Or that not a bone would be broken, his clothes gambled for, etc. 27 prophecies fulfilled the 24hrs surrounding his death alone. And these written hundreds of years before by many different authors. For me, and only for me, I am not trying to convince anyone here, I am just saying, that from what all I have learned it is more than good enough for me. That's all, its good enough for me, I don't wish to debate about it cuz ppl can contend for ever over it and never agree on anything. Its just my personal belief. Thanks!

In fact, he fulfilled none of them.

Follow me closely here. The gospels were written long after Jesus died. When they wrote them, all of those things you're calling "prophecy" had already happened. It's like me prophesying that Barack Obama would be elected President. Pretty easy to do after 2008. I guess it fooled the gullible though.

If you don't wish to debate, you're in the wrong forum.

But I can understand why you would not wish to. If my belief was based on falsehood and trickery, I would not wish to debate it either.

 

[javajo]

Hi! Well, I'll try to 'splain myself...The prophecies themselves were written hundreds of years before by various authors. The accounts of Jesus life, death and resurrection were recorded afterward, the prophecies weren't. Using your example: It would be fine for you to record the fact that Obama was elected after the fact, that is not a prophecy. But if some people 4-600 years ago or so said he would be and gave exact details surrounding the event, that would be prophecy. You simply recorded it. You did not prohpesy it. As they simply recorded it and proclaimed it. Also, I do not believe they were into "falsehood and trickery" as they all died proclaiming a risen Christ. I would think that being with Jesus for three years they would have had some character, even though one denied him and they scattered (another prophecy, they scattered). I'm not into falsehood and trickery either, I really believe in Jesus, and it is just a matter of faith, I suppose, I mean I'm not gonna try to prove it, I don't think I can. Its just my belief. If I'm a fool, so be it.

 

[dogsgod]

Hi! Well, I'll try to 'splain myself...The prophecies themselves were written hundreds of years before by various authors. The accounts of Jesus life, death and resurrection were recorded afterward, the prophecies weren't. Using your example: It would be fine for you to record the fact that Obama was elected after the fact, that is not a prophecy. But if some people 4-600 years ago or so said he would be and gave exact details surrounding the event, that would be prophecy. You simply recorded it. You did not prohpesy it. As they simply recorded it and proclaimed it. Also, I do not believe they were into "falsehood and trickery" as they all died proclaiming a risen Christ. I would think that being with Jesus for three years they would have had some character, even though one denied him and they scattered (another prophecy, they scattered). I'm not into falsehood and trickery either, I really believe in Jesus, and it is just a matter of faith, I suppose, I mean I'm not gonna try to prove it, I don't think I can. Its just my belief. If I'm a fool, so be it.

At least you admit it's a matter of faith which is far more respectful than the intellectual dishonesty practiced by the pretenders on this board.

 

[Autodidact]

HI! No, he did not fulfill ALL the Messianic Prophecies, yet. And, as I said its just my personal belief from my experience in study. For me, I don't think they knew enough to write in all the stuff to make it seem like prophecy, or that a man could manipulate it so. Like, Jesus could not manipulate that he would be sold for 30 pieces of silver that would be cast on the temple floor and used to buy a potters field.

O.K. let's start with this example. Where do you find this prophecy? And how do you know any of these things happened?

 

[javajo]

The prophecy is from Zechariah 11:12-13, the recording is in Mathew 26:15, 27:3, 9 as far as the 30 pieces of silver...I'm not going to worry about the floor and field. Point is, as I said, I don't KNOW these things happened, but I believe these things happened. I cannot prove them to anyone, I can only examine what I have and decide for myself. I believe it. If it seems like falsehood and trickery and just doesn't add up to you, then I admire you for sticking by what you believe is true.

 

[fallingblood]

Mathew 27:57-28:20
On the even of the day of crucifixion Pilate releases the body of Jesus to Jesus’ disciple, Joseph of Aramathea.
Joseph laid the body of Jesus in his own new tomb and rolled a stone to the door. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting against the sepulcher.
The day after the crucifixion the Chief priests and Pharisees sealed the stone and set a watch over the tomb.
At dawn of the first day of the week , Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulcher. There was a great earthquake and an angel of the lord descended from heaven, rolled away the stone and sat upon it. The watchmen became as dead men. The angel told the women that Jesus was not there, but had risen. He told them to come in and see where Jesus had lain. He told them to go and tell his disciples that he had risen from the dead and had gone to Galilee, where there they shall see him. While in route to tell the disciples, Jesus met them, they held his feet and worshipped him. Jesus then told them to tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee.
Mark 15:42-16:20
On the even of the day of crucifixion, Pilate releases the body of Jesus to Joseph of Aramathea.
Joseph laid Jesus in a tomb and rolled a stone unto the door, while Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James, the less and of Joses and Salome beheld.
At dawn, the first day of the week , the two Mary’s came to the sepulcher with sweet spices to anoint the body of Jesus. They wondered amongst themselves who would roll the stone away from the door for them but found that it was already rolled away.
Luke 23:50-24-53
On the day of the crucifixion, Joseph of Aramathea took the body of Jesus down and laid him in a new tomb.
On the first day of the week, early in the morning, the women that came with Jesus from Galilee, bringing the spices which they had prepared and certain others with them came to the sepulcher. They found the stone rolled away. They entered the tomb and saw two men in shining garments who told them that Jesus had risen. The women, Mary Magdalene, Joanna and Mary, the mother of James and other women that were with them returned from the sepulcher and told the eleven disciples and all the rest what they had observed and heard.



John 19:38-21:25
On the day of the crucifixion, Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple, but secretly for fear of the Jews, and Nicodemus took the body of Jesus and laid him in a sepulcher in the garden near where Jesus was crucified.
The first day of the week , early in the morning(3 days after the crucifixion), Mary Magdalene came to the sepulcher and saw the stone rolled away. She ran to Peter and the other disciples to tell them. Peter and another disciple ran to the sepulcher, the other outrunning Peter, arriving first to the sepulcher looked in and saw the clothes that Jesus wore.

ALL OF THESE DETAILED ACCOUNTS SAY THAT HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE CROSS AND PLACED IN THE TOMB ON THE EVENING JUST PRIOR TO THE SABBOTH (FRIDAY), HE WAS IN THE TOMB ONLY A COUPLE OF HOURS THAT DAY WHICH CANNOT BE COUNTED AS 1 DAY AND 1 NIGHT.
HE WAS THERE ALL NIGHT AND DAY OF THE SABBOTH (SATURDAY), WHICH ENDED AT APP. SUNSET OF THAT SATURDAY. THAT’S ONE NIGHT AND ONE DAY
HE WAS FOUND TO HAVE RISEN BEFORE DAWN ON THE DAY AFTER THE SABBOTH (SUNDAY) THAT WAS THE 2ND NIGHT
ALL TOTAL= 1 DAY AND TWO NIGHTS

Here's a couple of problems. One, the Gospels do not sync up perfectly. For instance, John claims that Jesus was crucified on the day before Passover. The Synoptics claim he was crucified on the Passover. So mix and matching really doesn't work. But that really doesn't matter.

Here is the problem. I have never claimed that Jesus was in the tomb for three days and three nights. I stated, and backed up with Biblical verses as you asked, that Jesus was in the tomb for three days. I explained the Jewish custom, and you have supported what I stated there. Thus, you support that according to Jewish custom, Jesus was in the tomb for three days.

Now, as I've asked before, why is Matthew's one mention of the three days and three nights more accurate than the many other accounts? Why is the one account in Matthew, and we must keep in mind that Matthew used Mark as a source, and that Matthew was written some 50 or more years after the event, is better than all of the other accounts? Can you explain this to me?

 

[James Humphreys]

I agree with this.

I think this is too big a conclusion to draw. We don't know when the resurrection part of the myth came into it. We don't know whether the disciples believed this or said they did, because we don't have their words. There's too much game-of-telegraph (or as the English call it, Chinese Whispers.)

So, if you agree that something actually did happen that allowed the early Christians to not only avoid destruction, but go out and preach with conviction, but that something was not the resurrection of Jesus, what do you think it was?

The Book of Acts may have been written 40 or 50 years after the crucifixion. It portrays the belief in the resurrection as the central item of faith for the early Christian movement, and especially for Paul. I'm not going to say that the Acts we read is exactly the same in every detail as the original, but I just don't see the resurrection theme as something that was introduced later. Acts to me, is not a polished book. It strings together anecdotes of miraculous occurrences with varied historical information. It breaks into a 1st person account(presumably of Luke), which to me has kind of the authentic feel of a diary. If it was written much later, or had been modified substantially, I think you would see a much more smooth and polished version.

 

[sniper762]

falling blood, just what scripture, precisely in mathew are you reffering to? mathew never said anything different than did the other three goospel writers reffering to the length of time jesus was in the tomb.

 

[Autodidact]

The prophecy is from Zechariah 11:12-13,

12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.


Clearly not a prophecy, but a simple statement of what happened. FAIL.


Here's what a prophecy sounds like: "I predict that X will happen in the future."

 

[fallingblood]

falling blood, just what scripture, precisely in mathew are you reffering to? mathew never said anything different than did the other three goospel writers reffering to the length of time jesus was in the tomb.

Did you read my post where I posted various verses from Mark, Matthew, and Luke which all claimed that it was just three days? I've already provided the verses, the explanation, and why you're wrong.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Have you read the four accounts? Here is why your'e wrong:


Mark 10:33-34- 33 We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."

Mark 8:31- 31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

Matthew 16:21 -21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 17:23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life." And the disciples were filled with grief.

Matthew 20:19 and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

Mark 9:31- because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise."

Luke 9:22- And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

Luke 18:33- On the third day he will rise again

Luke 24:7- The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.

Luke 24:46- He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day

Acts 10:40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

1 Corinthians 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures


So why are these verses less accurate? And can you show anywhere else where your claim is true? Or is it not true that it is only in Matthew?

These verses don't prove him wrong. You need to show how the Gospels depict Jesus as in the tomb for three days.

 

[sniper762]

yes fallingblood, i read your post. those scriptures each "by themselves" say that it was 3 days, but each of the ENTIRE gospels elaborates and precisely explains the timeline of the crucifixion and resurection and it does not add up to the 3 days AND 3 nights that jesus prophesiied

one must read th e "entire" text to fully understand it. your comparing apples to oranges