The Quandary

[Howard Is]

What does naturalism offer for fulfillment? What do naturalists care about beyond what's evident? What moral structure does naturalism support?
Where does hope float for naturalists?

You think the natural world is horrible ?

Religion is for people who can’t cope with reality ?

Why should I care about what is ‘beyond what’s evident ‘ ?

If you can’t be happy with reality as it is....you have a big problem.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How does your vision incorporate the large and growing number of atheists ?

Do you envision a global theocracy ?

I see that all will work towards our required unity and when we do we also have different goals and thoughts. I see in these times with science, man has thought more about where they came from and when science gets a chance to spread its wings unhindered by agenders, then they will find that they are one on the same path in also knowing God, but from a different frame of reference than those that have embraced Faith.

This is what I see will unfold;

"..Moreover, in this wondrous Dispensation the earth will become another earth and the world of humanity will be arrayed with perfect composure and adornment. Strife, contention, and bloodshed will give way to peace, sincerity, and harmony. Among the nations, peoples, kindreds, and governments, love and amity will prevail and cooperation and close connection will be firmly established. Ultimately, war will be entirely banned, and when the laws of the Most Holy Book are enacted, arguments and disputes will, with perfect justice, be settled before a universal tribunal of governments and peoples, and any difficulties which may arise will be resolved. The five continents of the world will become as one, its divers nations will become one nation, the earth will become one homeland, and the human race will become one people. Countries will be so intimately connected, and peoples and nations so commingled and united, that the human race will become as one family and one kindred. The light of heavenly love will shine and the gloomy darkness of hatred and enmity will be dispelled as far as possible. Universal peace will raise its pavilion in the midmost heart of creation and the blessed Tree of Life will so grow and flourish as to stretch its sheltering shade over the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, contending kindreds and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and the calf—will treat one another with the utmost love, unity, justice, and equity. The earth will be filled with knowledge and learning, with the realities and mysteries of creation, and with the knowledge of God...."

It is promised and I see it will happen, I see we will choose to make it happen.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You think the natural world is horrible ? I
Religion is for people who can’t cope with reality ? .
Why should I care about what is ‘beyond what’s evident ‘ ?
If you can’t be happy with reality as it is....you have a big problem.

These are great, can I have a go

You think the natural world is horrible ? I see it is perfect and wonderful, what a great place to learn.

Religion is for people who can’t cope with reality ? I see religion helps us find what is reality, our material senses can not show us what is, they are very unreliable.

Why should I care about what is ‘beyond what’s evident ‘ ? That is for you to decide, but would you not care for a loved one in great pain or torment and one can not see pain or torment, some hide it very well.

If you can’t be happy with reality as it is....you have a big problem. That is the Quandary we face, I see reality is our Spiritual Existence, I see this world is the true illusion, it is a matrix.

All good Howard, do not worry, you are free to be anything you choose. Regards Tony

 

[Howard Is]

All good Howard, do not worry, you are free to be anything you choose. Regards Tony

That isn’t true. Or necessary.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That isn’t true. Or necessary.

I also see it is the way we will train our children in the future. Firstly we will bring them up in virtue and the love of god an allow them to foster their individual inbuilt talent. I see education will be far different, it will not concentrate on popping out identical clones of educated mobs that do not even like what they do.

Every thing on this earth is different in some way, but exists in a greater unity. It is time to find our unity in diversity and to teach our children to be unique individuals that are part of a united whole.

Regards Tony

 

[Quintessence]

Monotheism is either true or false...
If it is true, there cannot be more than one God...
If monotheism is false, all bets are off.

Here's the thing, though, and I'm going to borrow some words from one of your associates:

I see all the different Gods exist only in our perceptions.

I don't agree with much of his follow-up to this, but the point that reality is constructed by our own perceptions is a very important one. This basically means that what is true for one is not for another. Respecting that instead of insisting "oh, monotheism correct all others incorrect" is the way to go if you want to even attempt "unity" because the alternative is at best disrespectful and at worst demands eradication of competing perceptions and ideas.

Long and the short of it - respect people's stories and don't rewrite them to synch up with your own. I understand that's easier said than done. It's definitely a lot easier for me to go "monotheists aren't really devoted to one god because in practice they definitely display devotion to multiple gods" than accept "no, I should not be rewriting their stories to suit my own perspective - they worship one god, period." And I definitely shouldn't be doing things like "someday the monotheists will just realize they're actually behaving as polytheists and embrace the real truth of the matter." That's just arrogance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's the thing, though, and I'm going to borrow some words from one of your associates:



I don't agree with much of his follow-up to this, but the point that reality is constructed by our own perceptions is a very important one. This basically means that what is true for one is not for another. Respecting that instead of insisting "oh, monotheism correct all others incorrect" is the way to go if you want to even attempt "unity" because the alternative is at best disrespectful and at worst demands eradication of competing perceptions and ideas.

Long and the short of it - respect people's stories and don't rewrite them to synch up with your own. I understand that's easier said than done. It's definitely a lot easier for me to go "monotheists aren't really devoted to one god because in practice they definitely display devotion to multiple gods" than accept "no, I should not be rewriting their stories to suit my own perspective - they worship one god, period." And I definitely shouldn't be doing things like "someday the monotheists will just realize they're actually behaving as polytheists and embrace the real truth of the matter." That's just arrogance.

That to me that is the Quandary this post presents for discussion. Where do we turn to find what is the Truth about who we are and why we are here?

In history, it has shown we do get people that claim a Message is from God and live a life of great sacrifice to give us what God has told them to deliver to us. These Messages can be shown to tie into each other, like the source is One. Then we get people making their versions of those messages, or we get people making their own truths with a mix of all of that, or we get people making up their own ideas.

In this day I see we have the chance of Unity and Peace. There is a Message that shows us how that can be acheived and it is based on Oneness that includes our diversity.

I am happy how anyone chooses to see what life is to them, but in the end the world needs unity and how will we find that if all people just want to do their own thing and not worry about all the people living around them in other countries? The world is now so small, we have to find unity, or perish.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

... but the point that reality is constructed by our own perceptions is a very important one. This basically means that what is true for one is not for another.

That depends upon how you define “true.”

If you define true as what different people believe is true, you are correct, as people believe different things are true.

However, logically speaking, if God (s) exists in reality, there is either only one God or there are many Gods, both cannot be true. That was my only point.

But since God is unknowable and unprovable, all we have are beliefs, conceptions of God or Gods. It could be that the “many Gods” are all aspects of one God, I know Hindus who believe this.

Respecting that instead of insisting "oh, monotheism correct all others incorrect" is the way to go if you want to even attempt "unity" because the alternative is at best disrespectful and at worst demands eradication of competing perceptions and ideas.

Imo, respecting others’ beliefs should always be the order of the day.

Why does it have to be a competition? Why can’t we just share with an attitude of mutual respect? We can present what we believe without insisting we are right.

Baha’u’llah wrote that if two people argue they are both wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ultimately, war will be entirely banned, and when the laws of the Most Holy Book are enacted, arguments and disputes will, with perfect justice, be settled before a universal tribunal of governments and peoples, and any difficulties which may arise will be resolved. The five continents of the world will become as one, its divers nations will become one nation, the earth will become one homeland, and the human race will become one people.

So here in the U.S. we have legislators making laws and police to enforce those laws. People have their cases heard in front of judges and juries... and still they make mistakes. Some rich and powerful people get off because they can get around the laws. Some people keep committing all sorts of crimes, including killing others. Laws, police and judges haven't stopped people from doing bad things. Why will the Baha'i laws and judicial system be different?

But then, how will they get jurisdiction over the whole world? Baha'is here on the forum have denied that Baha'is want or expect to "rule" the world. But if they don't, who's going to in act laws from the Baha'i "Most Holy" book? Then, who's going to enforce those laws? And will they have weapons? And will people have weapons? And this "universal" tribunal... is that different then the Baha'i Universal House of Justice? And maybe you can say that your UHJ will make fair and good judgements, but will a non-Baha'i tribunal be fair? And free from corruption?

 

[CG Didymus]

I also see it is the way we will train our children in the future. Firstly we will bring them up in virtue and the love of god an allow them to foster their individual inbuilt talent. I see education will be far different, it will not concentrate on popping out identical clones of educated mobs that do not even like what they do.

Every thing on this earth is different in some way, but exists in a greater unity. It is time to find our unity in diversity and to teach our children to be unique individuals that are part of a united whole.

Regards Tony

Hmmm, train children? Christians have been training their kids for centuries... how that working out? But sure, in a Baha'i world it will be different. But how's that going to work? What does a kid know about what they want to be with the talents they have? Like if their parents are doctors, they should have inherited the gene to be a doctor? Doesn't that already happen? The kid is expected to follow in the footsteps of the parents. And back in the old days, the kid was trained by the father to be a carpenter or a blacksmith or a farmer.... or a conman or a lawyer or a drug lord or a movie star or whatever. The girl, of course, was trained to be a baby making housewife.

Then in tribal societies, the boys were trained to hunt and fight their enemies. The girls were trained to gather berries and have babies. Then the in some societies the king or chiefs kids were treated special and inherited the rulership.

So what's going to happen to Baha'i kids? What if all of them what to be doctors and lawyers. Who's going to be the ditch diggers and farmers. And on the farm, who's kids are going to pick the strawberries and lettuce? Like who's kid is going to say "Oh geez, teach how to be bent over all day in the hot sun picking fruit for very little money?" Then, if you pay them more, why would they continue doing that kind of work? But even office workers, who really is happy doing all the paper work. But somebody is going to have to do the grunt work. Who will do it in the Baha'i "perfect" world?

 

[Ancient Soul]

The wisdom is greater. The Father knows what the result of disunity is, the Father knows the future consequences, but does not interfere with the choices we make, that will become our salvation, or we will be judged by own our actions, the actions have ramifications written into the fabric of existence. We are very ignorant of what power we do have.

The Father does not punish, but will be their to offer Love and advice, as we face what our choices will and do bring upon us.

RegardsTony

Do your beliefs have a system of instructions on how to develop this "power we do have"?

And do your beliefs have a system of instructions on how to receive God's advise. along with how to verify that it's from God and not another entity?

Yes, it is within us all and nature can be our greatest teacher, there is no limit to creation, it is beyond out computation and as such it has been said;

"..This being the case, how can one, without proof or testimony, conceive of creation being bound by limits? Gaze with penetrating vision into this new cycle. Hast thou seen any matter in which God is bounded by limits which He cannot overstep? Nay, by the excellence of His glory! On the contrary, His tokens have encompassed all things and are sanctified and exalted beyond computation in the world of creation.

These are spiritual truths relating to the spiritual world. In like manner, from these spiritual realities infer truths about the material world. For physical things are signs and imprints of spiritual things; every lower thing is an image and counterpart of a higher thing. Nay, earthly and heavenly, material and spiritual, accidental and essential, particular and universal, structure and foundation, appearance and reality and the essence of all things, both inward and outward -- all of these are connected one with another and are interrelated in such a manner that you will find that drops are patterned after seas, and that atoms are structured after suns in proportion to their capacities and potentialities..."

Regards Tony

I added the original posts up top so the readers can follow along better.

So basically your religious dogma has no instructions on how to develop this "power we do have". Even sadder, from what you presented here looks more like they are trying to 'shut down" anyone trying to find out what ""power we do have" by using such self-defeating verbiage as: "it is beyond our computation". Which I find shocking in a religion that you look to for spiritual answers, to be told "Na, ah, it's beyond your capabilities to comprehend anything truly spiritual.". What??!!! Then goes on to instead give you some confusing gobbledygook that requires further explaining from some MAN, just like all the other man made religions do.

Nor do I see anything as to my other question of:

"how to verify that it's from God and not another entity?"

(IT meaning your beliefs/religion/dogma.)

 

[Ancient Soul]

There you go, changed it just so you could see it was not a day to blow the top

Regards Tony

LOL

So is this going to be your "Early Warning" I'm about to blow my top system?

No top = Everybody run for cover.

With top = all is cool, say whatever you want.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I see all the different Gods exist only in our perceptions. I was speaking to my wife today about this specific subject. If we look at pure white light it contains all the wavelengths and it is only when we refract light we see all the colours, all what we call different Gods from the same source of light. When the light hits a specific mind, then God can appear appear in different colours because that mind may absorb only some colours (wavelengths) and then may reflect or transmit other colours.

That is again the Quandary we face. We now live in an age where even science is exploring creation and see it may have come from a single point in time, again pointing to a oneness of creation from a different frame of reference. Thus everything in this creation is connected to a source.

I see the quandary is not about being divisive, it is about exploring possibilities outside of our own perceptions. We are all to prone to become set in our ways and I see that is our challenge, to look constantly outside the box.

Regards Tony

Good thoughts overall, but it made me immediately think of the atheists who LOVE to stay in the box and just sit there enjoying being left in the darkness.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yes, it is within us all and nature can be our greatest teacher, there is no limit to creation, it is beyond out computation and as such it has been said;

"..This being the case, how can one, without proof or testimony, conceive of creation being bound by limits? Gaze with penetrating vision into this new cycle. Hast thou seen any matter in which God is bounded by limits which He cannot overstep? Nay, by the excellence of His glory! On the contrary, His tokens have encompassed all things and are sanctified and exalted beyond computation in the world of creation.

These are spiritual truths relating to the spiritual world. In like manner, from these spiritual realities infer truths about the material world. For physical things are signs and imprints of spiritual things; every lower thing is an image and counterpart of a higher thing. Nay, earthly and heavenly, material and spiritual, accidental and essential, particular and universal, structure and foundation, appearance and reality and the essence of all things, both inward and outward -- all of these are connected one with another and are interrelated in such a manner that you will find that drops are patterned after seas, and that atoms are structured after suns in proportion to their capacities and potentialities..."

Regards Tony

Now that my original shock and bewilderment had worn off over this reply, and I've have had time to think about it some more, I want to revisit it and ask how you think your reply answers my questions of:

"Do your beliefs have a system of instructions on how to develop this "power we do have"?

And do your beliefs have a system of instructions on how to receive God's advise. along with how to verify that it's from God and not another entity?"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now that my original shock and bewilderment had worn off over this reply, and I've have had time to think about it some more, I want to revisit it and ask how you think your reply answers my questions of:

"Do your beliefs have a system of instructions on how to develop this "power we do have"?

And do your beliefs have a system of instructions on how to receive God's advise. along with how to verify that it's from God and not another entity?"

Baha'u'llah has given us over 100 volumes of writings and instructions to learn from.

All of those are given as to proof of the source.

That is the Quandary offered by the OP.

All that is offered is either from our One God or it is not.

If it is and we neglect to consider it, then we have made ourselves our own God. That is one of our greatest challenges and I see Muhammad prepared us for this day, the Quran is all about submitting to God.

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

You think the natural world is horrible ?

Religion is for people who can’t cope with reality ?

Why should I care about what is ‘beyond what’s evident ‘ ?

If you can’t be happy with reality as it is....you have a big problem.

The natural world can be very devastating obviously. It has its ups and downs.

I'm not religious, just spiritual. Religion often paints a reality worse than the actual.

Beyond what is evident is all that is unknown. That's quite a bit to care about.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Baha'u'llah has given us over 100 volumes of writings and instructions to learn from.

All of those are given as to proof of the source.

That is the Quandary offered by the OP.

All that is offered is either from our One God or it is not.

If it is and we neglect to consider it, then we have made ourselves our own God. That is one of our greatest challenges and I see Muhammad prepared us for this day, the Quran is all about submitting to God.

Regards Tony

Thanks.

That is MUCH better than all that gobbledygook you first tried blowing in my face. Why couldn't you have just stated this in the first place? (Rhetorical question, no need to answer.)

So you DO realize that there is no real proof that this Baha'u'llah religion comes from any "god", just like all the other man made religions.

Also thanks for clarifying why you STILL believe in it without any real proof that it's from any "god":

"If it is and we neglect to consider it, then we have made ourselves our own God. That is one of our greatest challenges and I see Muhammad prepared us for this day, the Quran is all about submitting to God. ".

Now is this statement of "then we have made ourselves our own God." something your religion teaches?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you DO realize that there is no real proof that this Baha'u'llah religion comes from any "god", just like all the other man made religions.

All Messengers offer their own person, their life and then the Message. They are the first to live by the Word they give us.

Baha'u'llah has asked us to consider if it is not from God as claimed, then who would dare to take on such a venture? What value is it to the person delivering the Message in this world. Now if we are fair, we can see the result of giving such a Message is not material gain, in fact it means that life is no longer yours. That is what faith is, giving yourself for the good of all others.

Also thanks for clarifying why you STILL believe in it without any real proof that it's from any "god":

The proof for me is unlimited, every atom in this universe each contains universe's of Truth and Proof to me. That is another way of saying 100% proof and it is why so many early believers are able to give their lives for the grater Good.

"If it is and we neglect to consider it, then we have made ourselves our own God. That is one of our greatest challenges and I see Muhammad prepared us for this day, the Quran is all about submitting to God. ". Now is this statement of "then we have made ourselves our own God." something your religion teaches?

I see all Faiths teach this. I can quote those if interested, but I see this is a better meditation to consider;

"....... Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth..... "

Thus we all have what is given by God and each of us will let it shine from us, as we so choose.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So you DO realize that there is no real proof that this Baha'u'llah religion comes from any "god", just like all the other man made religions.

Also thanks for clarifying why you STILL believe in it without any real proof that it's from any "god":

What proof do you have that anything you believe or have experienced came from God?

Do you have "better proof" than Baha'u'llah had?

 

[Ancient Soul]

Thanks.

That is MUCH better than all that gobbledygook you first tried blowing in my face. Why couldn't you have just stated this in the first place? (Rhetorical question, no need to answer.)

So you DO realize that there is no real proof that this Baha'u'llah religion comes from any "god", just like all the other man made religions.

Also thanks for clarifying why you STILL believe in it without any real proof that it's from any "god":

"If it is and we neglect to consider it, then we have made ourselves our own God. That is one of our greatest challenges and I see Muhammad prepared us for this day, the Quran is all about submitting to God. ".

Now is this statement of "then we have made ourselves our own God." something your religion teaches?

All Messengers offer their own person, their life and then the Message. They are the first to live by the Word they give us.

Baha'u'llah has asked us to consider if it is not from God as claimed, then who would dare to take on such a venture? What value is it to the person delivering the Message in this world. Now if we are fair, we can see the result of giving such a Message is not material gain, in fact it means that life is no longer yours. That is what faith is, giving yourself for the good of all others.

The proof for me is unlimited, every atom in this universe each contains universe's of Truth and Proof to me. That is another way of saying 100% proof and it is why so many early believers are able to give their lives for the grater Good.

I see all Faiths teach this. I can quote those if interested, but I see this is a better meditation to consider;

"....... Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth..... "

Thus we all have what is given by God and each of us will let it shine from us, as we so choose.

Regards Tony

Sigh...

Well, I can see THAT didn't last very long! From your one straight answer post, you again reverted to a gobbledygook reply. Oh well, it was good while it lasted, however short that was.

But your answer was nothing but a straw man reply. I seem to get that a lot from people who have shaky beliefs.

You could have just saved a lot of valuable forum space by just admitting that there is no proof the Baha'u'llah dogma came from any "god". It is a yes or no issue, not asking for any speculation or guessing.

Right now I'm trying to decide if you somehow think your reply had anything to do with my questions, or just throwing out more Baha'u'llah gobbledygook to mess with me.

So please try staying on track, I'm asking if there is any proof that your Baha'u'llah beliefs/dogma came from God. Yes or no. And if this statement is something your religion teaches:

"If it is and we neglect to consider it, then we have made ourselves our own God."

?