Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Whichever comes up first when I quote a verse. That one was Sahih international.
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The problems with Islam and possible solutions?
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stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
You probably already know this, but corpus.quran.com gives the 7 best translations plus word-for-word. Mohsin Khan is useful because he frequently adds clarifications in braces.
It is true that there are many verses pointing to Hell especially for the disbelievers as well as the hypocrites and evil-doers. But since there are also verses which suggest that Allah may will it otherwise (i.e. 6:128 and 11:107), and Allah points also time and again to His Mercy, as well as the Hadith Qudsi that His Mercy will prevail over His Wrath, I argue that whilst he has given a stern warning to the disbelievers and hypocrites and evil-doers of Hell, I prefer to rely on His Mercy as being the overriding factor in such determinations. As to my saying and Allah knows best. That is because I genuinely and sincerely believe what I believe but can never know for certain that what I believe is correct. For Allah does indeed know best in all matters. That is not hypocrisy.
If it is definitely for eternity, Allah would not have revealed verses 6:128 and 11:107.
Do 6:128 and 11:107 definitely refer to believers who are sinners, then, who will be taken out of Hell sometime? 6:128 in particular refers to an eternal dwelling in the Fire, except as Allah may will, and the following verses suggest that these are aimed at disbelievers (i.e. 6:129 and 6:130).
11:107 is more ambiguous. It could possibly be referring to believers who are sinners (who will nevertheless according to the verse dwell in Hell for a very long time indeed, 'for all the time that the Heavens and the Earth endure'), although verse 11:109 suggests this verse too might be aimed at disbelievers who used to worship others than Allah.
Going back to the OP (opening post):
and the deadly blows of my fear of Your punishment.
This is poetic expression of regret taught by Imam Jewad (a).
What I'm proposing is that none of the Quran is fully ever abrogated, it's abrogation is situational, in one situation war is allowed, in another it's not for example. It's not that any verses are every fully cancelled out. To make the verses in the 4th chapter about this issue not abrogated is in fact sensible, as we would be putting Quran at the mercy of hadiths and man made methods to determine which one abrogates which (Suratal Noor verses or Suratal Nisa verses abrogating those). The rational way is to say they are both revealed for all time and interpret one another.
Going to the metaphoric proses of "hands" and we know both hands are not cut according to any hadiths and so this can't be literal.
There are ahadith that I quoted that show maiming is forbidden (cutting off limbs), there are hadiths even saying physical punishment is never the way to reform any human.
It make more sense that combining the verses, house arrest was the common way, but it was not to be a vacation, but rather, days of "deadly blows of my of your punishment" so that the human is reformed.
There is more to be said about this from a spiritual standpoint, Mohammad (s) is a weapon or a missile as expressed in Quran against Satanic forces, and so lashes can be spiritually metaphorical too. He is suppose to cleanse the human and so it's recommended to make people aware of his spiritual station so that he can cleanse the sinners from their sins.
and the deadly blows of my fear of Your punishment.
This is poetic expression of regret taught by Imam Jewad (a).
What I'm proposing is that none of the Quran is fully ever abrogated, it's abrogation is situational, in one situation war is allowed, in another it's not for example. It's not that any verses are every fully cancelled out. To make the verses in the 4th chapter about this issue not abrogated is in fact sensible, as we would be putting Quran at the mercy of hadiths and man made methods to determine which one abrogates which (Suratal Noor verses or Suratal Nisa verses abrogating those). The rational way is to say they are both revealed for all time and interpret one another.
Going to the metaphoric proses of "hands" and we know both hands are not cut according to any hadiths and so this can't be literal.
There are ahadith that I quoted that show maiming is forbidden (cutting off limbs), there are hadiths even saying physical punishment is never the way to reform any human.
It make more sense that combining the verses, house arrest was the common way, but it was not to be a vacation, but rather, days of "deadly blows of my of your punishment" so that the human is reformed.
There is more to be said about this from a spiritual standpoint, Mohammad (s) is a weapon or a missile as expressed in Quran against Satanic forces, and so lashes can be spiritually metaphorical too. He is suppose to cleanse the human and so it's recommended to make people aware of his spiritual station so that he can cleanse the sinners from their sins.
Salam dear,
I can explain these verses in a way they don't contradict hell being forever, but this is all off-topic from the OP. Let's make a thread about whether hell is forever or not per Quran. I think there is too many verses that explain it to be forever that these two verses have to be interpreted in light of those rather than the other way.
But let's make a new thread for that. If you don't do it, I will do it inshallah, it will be a good and important discussion inshallah.
I'm not sure it is off topic, as the notion of disbelievers being punished in Hell for eternity could be seen as a 'problem with Islam' and my interpretation of these two verses could be seen as a possible solution to that, but anyway, happy to create a new thread about it.
You are right, I included in the OP. Okay, I will reply soon inshallah.
So no need to create a new thread?
Yeah, we can discuss it here.
Okay, great.
Salam
We know by many verses, believers will never be removed from paradise. So it can't mean some believers God will make an exception and remove them from paradise. As contextually, they are twin statements the one about paradise and one about hell, I feel it's best to translate it as "it is only what God wills..." rather then make it as exception. So it's a commentary that this is what God wills and doesn't will anything other then that.
What do you think of this?
My primary reason for leaving Islam for five years was the concept of hell and my love for human beings made it that I couldn't accept it.
What I proposed in the OP, is some philosophical reasoning for it. However, the Quran more then anything else perhaps, goes into length in proving hell and it's forever nature, and why.
So we can discuss the philosophy for sure from the standpoint. It's not easy to accept, I know, because it takes one to remove the veils of CLAIMS of people in their outward clothes/masks, and see the interior from the viewpoint of the light and Quran.
What I proposed in the OP, is some philosophical reasoning for it. However, the Quran more then anything else perhaps, goes into length in proving hell and it's forever nature, and why.
So we can discuss the philosophy for sure from the standpoint. It's not easy to accept, I know, because it takes one to remove the veils of CLAIMS of people in their outward clothes/masks, and see the interior from the viewpoint of the light and Quran.
Salam,
That's an interesting idea. I guess my response to that would be, why then does Allah not make a similar statement in relation to Paradise?
Wasalam
Salam
Brother, read the Chapter, he does right next to it.
Can you give me the relevant verse(s) and your translation of the relevant verse(s)?
It's 11:108.
Sure, I can translate, my interpretation is:
As for the happy, they will be in paradise. They will remain in it for as long as the heavens and the earth endure—it is only as your Lord wills—a gift never coming to an end.
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ سُعِدُوا فَفِي الْجَنَّةِ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۖ عَطَاءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ
I am also proposing the words "عَطَاءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ" show that it means paradise will never cease for anyone, so there is no doubt now, it's "it is only as your Lord wills".