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The problems with Islam and possible solutions?

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's because it's like dating. We know cheating is more likely to happen in dating then a commitment.
If it is not a commitment why require an oath and contract?

As for poverty, what I'm saying is that their situation is more dire to get back out and work due to their poverty. So that is two reasons for reducing the punishment in half.
I'm not sure i follow why you criminalise unlawful sexual relations at all if you are concerned about the poor, because 40 days without work is enough not to pay the rent.

And is mutah means tested so that the rich are not allowed to engage in it?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The expression "those who your right hands possess" appears many times. How does that not mean slaves?

Right hand can be translated to oath, who your oath give sexual authority over, and it works both ways. It refers to marriage and muta.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If it is not a commitment why require an oath and contract?


I'm not sure i follow why you criminalise unlawful sexual relations at all if you are concerned about the poor, because 40 days without work is enough not to pay the rent.

And is mutah means tested so that the rich are not allowed to engage in it?

By commitment, I meant to stay with the person, while Muta is a temporary contract.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Islam absolutely consigns every single non-Muslim to an eternity of being burned alive over and over and over for eternity

I don't believe all non-Muslims will be consigned to Hell. I believe anyone who believes in One God, Divine Judgment, and does good deeds will be accorded a place in Paradise.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I don't believe all non-Muslims will be consigned to Hell. I believe anyone who believes in One God, Divine Judgment, and does good deeds will be accorded a place in Paradise.

Do you think believing that Jesus is the son of God still counts as believing "in One God"?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
The qur'an very clearly says that God does NOT have a son, and that believing He does is blasphemy.

The Qur'an also says that Jews, Christians (my emphasis), and Sabians, whoever believes in One God, the Day of Judgment, and does good deeds, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. And Allah from the very beginning, again and again emphasises His Mercy and His Forgiveness. And there is a Hadith Qudsi in which Allah pledges to Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My Mercy prevails over my Wrath. So clearly He is willing to forgive even those who have gone astray in declaring that He has a son. And Allah knows best.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
The Qur'an also says that Jews, Christians (my emphasis), and Sabians, whoever believes in One God, the Day of Judgment, and does good deeds, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

Verse 2:62 is contrary to the vast majority of those concerning unbelievers. It says, "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve".

If this includes, for example, Christians who believe Jesus to be the son of God, it directly contradicts all previous and future verses such as 29:68 that says, "And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or denies the truth when it comes to him? Is there not a dwelling in Hell for disbelievers". Verse 5:73 is specific to Christians, "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them". It could not be more clear.

Also, a clarification (some might say abrogation) of verse 2:62 appears later in 3:199, "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation [Qur'an] to you [Mohamed], and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain". This creates a caveat stating that only those who accept the Qur'an in addition to the Bible have no need to fear, as opposed to "the People of the Book" in general as 2:62 could be understood to mean.

And Allah from the very beginning, again and again emphasises His Mercy and His Forgiveness. And there is a Hadith Qudsi in which Allah pledges to Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My Mercy prevails over my Wrath. So clearly He is willing to forgive even those who have gone astray in declaring that He has a son. And Allah knows best.

Again and again Allah claims to be merciful. But, that doesn't comply with the hundreds of verses that promise an eternity of torture by fire for those who do nothing more than reject the religion of islam.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them". It could not be more clear.

The notion of Jesus (pbuh) being 'simply' God's son is not the same as the notion that Jesus (pbuh) is 'God the Son' in the Trinity. The former is still an erroneous notion, but not on the same level as the latter.

Also, a clarification (some might say abrogation) of verse 2:62 appears later in 3:199, "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation [Qur'an] to you [Mohamed], and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain". This creates a caveat stating that only those who accept the Qur'an in addition to the Bible have no need to fear, as opposed to "the People of the Book" in general as 2:62 could be understood to mean.

Then they wouldn't be Christians (or Jews) anymore, so the latter as a qualifier for 2:62, whilst a common interpretation, to my mind doesn't make sense.

Again and again Allah claims to be merciful. But, that doesn't comply with the hundreds of verses that promise an eternity or torture by fire for those who do nothing more than reject the religion of islam.

Some have interpreted Allah's Statement that His Mercy will prevail over His Wrath to indicate that He will forgive even those who are disbelievers and will eventually take them out of the Hellfire.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
The notion of Jesus (pbuh) being 'simply' God's son is not the same as the notion that Jesus (pbuh) is 'God the Son' in the Trinity. The former is still an erroneous notion, but not on the same level as the latter.

I see your point about differentiating between having a son, and that son being God in the trinity, but, as you said, the qur'an also clearly says the lower level is not true, and therefore saying Jesus is God's son qualifies as "telling a lie concerning god", and is therefore a ticket to Hell.

17:111 "He has not begotten a son and has no partner in His Kingdom", 19:35 "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son"

Then they wouldn't be Christians (or Jews) anymore, so the latter as a qualifier for 2:62, whilst a common interpretation, to my mind doesn't make sense.

That's my point too. It refers to Christian and Jews who accept the qur'an and therefore become Muslims.

Some have interpreted Allah's Statement that His Mercy will prevail over His Wrath to indicate that He will forgive even those who are disbelievers and will eventually take them out of the Hellfire.

That is contrary to verses that says they will dwell there forever.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Some have interpreted Allah's Statement that His Mercy will prevail over His Wrath to indicate that He will forgive even those who are disbelievers and will eventually take them out of the Hellfire.
Some? Who?? That would be a contradiction so it is not possible.
Again and again Allah claims to be merciful.
He is also the most just.
So clearly He is willing to forgive even those who have gone astray in declaring that He has a son.
That is still contradicting the Quran and also hadith.
Abu Huraira reported God’s messenger as saying, "By Him in whose hand Muhammad’s soul is, anyone of this people, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in my message, will be among those who go to hell.”
Faith - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
I see your point about differentiating between having a son, and that son being God in the trinity, but, as you said, the qur'an also clearly says the lower level is not true, and therefore saying Jesus is God's son qualifies as "telling a lie concerning god", and is therefore a ticket to Hell.

17:111 "He has not begotten a son and has no partner in His Kingdom", 19:35 "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son"



That's my point too. It refers to Christian and Jews who accept the qur'an and therefore become Muslims.



That is contrary to verses that says they will dwell there forever.

Allah is All-Forgiving, and as grievous a sin as disbelief or going astray in fundamental matters of belief is, I believe Allah is Capable of overturning His Prescription that the disbelievers will reside in Hell forever.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Some? Who?? That would be a contradiction so it is not possible.

He is also the most just.

That is still contradicting the Quran and also hadith.

I am struggling to remember where I heard this idea from. But I for one believe Allah is Capable of doing this.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Allah is All-Forgiving, and as grievous a sin as disbelief or going astray in fundamental matters of belief is, I believe Allah is Capable of overturning His Prescription that the disbelievers will reside in Hell forever.
That is similar to how Christians argue. They say, but surely God is capable of... Because then who can say He isn't? But the issue is not whether He is capable or not, but whether you believe in the message He sent or not. Someone being able to do something is not by any logic an indication that they do or will do something.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
That is similar to how Christians argue. They say, but surely God is capable of... Because then who can say He isn't? But the issue is not whether He is capable or not, but whether you believe in the message He sent or not. Someone being able to do something is not by any logic an indication that they do or will do something.

No, that is true, and that is why I will always argue that Allah knows best.
 
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