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The problems with Islam and possible solutions?
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stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Again, Mohamed-pretending-to-be-speaking-the-words-of-God has contradicted himself. There are verses that definitely say consignment to Hell is for eternity. He spouted 6,236 verses falsely claiming them to be divine revelation, so he was bound to trip up a few times, and he did.
As for the philosophy of hell forever, I believe God explained it this way, those who leave their rebellion and submit and fend of evil deeds from taken over their souls, they will be forgiven when they repent. But those who let dark deeds become their nature, hate and envy towards God and his chosen and their believers there source of energy while they deceive themselves they are good, and reform the earth, while they corrupt it and cause chaos and mischief in it, the latter can't be compared to what a good human being or what a repented believer is. The enviers and haters deserve hell while the lovers and those who cease their war with God and love him and his chosen, deserve paradise, and there is levels of hell and levels of paradise, but in no way, is it allowed to deny the reality of God's word of light as that is the nature of goodness and guidance is to be sought.
You rely on again translations of people without authority from God to conclude those with authority of God have no authority. Very bad reasoning.
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Thank you, that addresses that verse, what about the other verse?
What I'm proposing is these two verses are next to each other and so the line "this is only what God wills" is in that verse about hell in chapter 11 and because of similarity, you can apply it else where for example in another chapter such as chapter 6 (Surtal Anaam).
There are many verses showing hell is forever, and I just showed how contextually by language, Quran explained the phrase to be better translated as "this only what God wills".
And you welcome.
With peace.
That would have been my response, thanks! I guess I will have to reconsider my position!
No problem, glad to have helped, alhamdulilah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I rejected what has become of the religion of Islam since Muhammad walked the earth, but I do not reject the Qur'an, and that is all that really matters.
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
It is interesting that Sahih's dogmatic Muhammad equates people who deny and are arrogant towards Quranic verses as criminals.
It is good to be humble of course, but I suspect anyone who openly denies the Quranic verses would be seen as arrogant towards them.
Besides, since there is no proof for God it is unreasonable to consider those who behave arrogantly towards God claims as criminals.
Therefore this verse is just the polemic of a deranged fanatic according to Sahih's translation.
In my opinion.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not reject the Qur'an, I rejected what "you believe" certain verses mean and your apparent overlooking of other verses that say something else.
In the name of God may the peace and blessings of God be on Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions
If a person dies in disbelief and this is a form of disbelief perhaps the worst form of disbelief the distant place for such a person is hellfire. The argument of the disbelievers is that if there is God let Him punish them. As per their expectations and condition they will taste the punishment.
The punishment of disbelief is certain unless a person repents during life, even just before the last moment of his life. However the mercy of Allah, Arabic word for God, prevails over his wrath so it is possible that people are taken out of hellfire because of any grain of belief they had in this life. We learn it from the following Hadith
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Whoever said "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of a barley grain will be taken out of Hell. And whoever said: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of a wheat grain will be taken out of Hell. And whoever said, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and has in his heart good (faith) equal to the weight of an atom will be taken out of Hell."
حَدَّثَنَا مُسْلِمُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا قَتَادَةُ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ " يَخْرُجُ مِنَ النَّارِ مَنْ قَالَ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ، وَفِي قَلْبِهِ وَزْنُ شَعِيرَةٍ مِنْ خَيْرٍ، وَيَخْرُجُ مِنَ النَّارِ مَنْ قَالَ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ، وَفِي قَلْبِهِ وَزْنُ بُرَّةٍ مِنْ خَيْرٍ، وَيَخْرُجُ مِنَ النَّارِ مَنْ قَالَ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ، وَفِي قَلْبِهِ وَزْنُ ذَرَّةٍ مِنْ خَيْرٍ ". قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ قَالَ أَبَانُ حَدَّثَنَا قَتَادَةُ حَدَّثَنَا أَنَسٌ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم " مِنْ إِيمَانٍ ". مَكَانَ " مِنْ خَيْرٍ ".
Reference
: Sahih al-Bukhari 44
In-book reference
: Book 2, Hadith 37
Praise be to God, The Lord of the worlds
From: Will Allah forgive the disbelievers and atheists during the day of judgement? - Quora
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that was true when the Qur’an was written and until the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah but I believe that the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh has abrogated all the Dispensations gone before it.
Just as Jesus said we must believe in Him to obtain everlasting life, and just as Muhammad said that we must accept Islam, Baha’u’llah has written that we must accept the Him as the Manifestation of God for this age or we will not have everlasting life.
“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p.169
“No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
Those people who are separated from God will not have eternal life. Although their souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they are “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God. I guess that could be likened to hell.
“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
I think it's a fine translation. If one goes to hell as a disbeliever, is there anything strange about saying he's a criminal? Once again, you're not understanding the severity of the sin.
The strange thing about it is that it criminalises law abiding non-believers. A person could abide by every Quranic law even such trivial things as not eating pork yet be a disbeliever and many Muslims who believe in this interpretation would see them as fit to be treated no different to people who commit genuine crimes such as murder, rape, theft etc.
Non belief is *not* a crime, and that you see it as one could potentially cause you to treat a non-believer in a genuinely criminal manner.
After all if a person is fit to be burned for all eternity they are hardly fit to be given humane treatment.
I'm inclined to think that if your dogmatic Muhammad existed He most probably had post traumatic stress disorder from His early traumatic experiences at the hands of the polytheists that caused Him to dream up sick fantasies of all disbelievers burning in hell forever.
But sick twisted fantasies of the ill are certainly not based in justice and compassion for those who merely disbelieve.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Eating pork is one of the major sins.
You're mixing earthly law with the day of judgment.
We don't know if a person goes to hell or not. We don't know if someone who is a disbeliever will become a believer. We are not even allowed to say of a disbeliever who has died, no matter who they are, that they will definitely go to hell. Because we don't know what is in their heart, what is between them and Allah. We don't know if their last words were la ilah illa Allah.
This life is a test and during this life every one has the chance to repent and to change.
"If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour)" [16:61]
And Islam commands how we treat disbelievers.
The life and wealth of the disbeliever who is at peace with the Muslims, is protected by the sharia.
Actually you are by criminalising disbelief.
This is not true, a blasphemer and/or apostate who is at peace with Muslims is not protected in your brand of Islam and those who convert people away from Islam dont seem to fare to well either.
In my opinion.
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Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Both have committed a crime. The sharia law applies to Muslims as well, so it isn't something that only pertains to disbelievers.
This is the root cause of problems in Islamic society, bad ideas get introduced under the guise of religion, then they are protected from competition with better ideas by blasphemy/apostasy laws.
In my opinion.