The Prince of Lies?

[rusra02]

If neither Adam nor Eve are alive, how can they be in heaven or in hell or in purgatory or in whatever other magical place you can invent? I'm pretty sure neither Adam nor Eve ever existed. If people "die" how can they have an "afterLIFE?" such theist believes always seams contradictory...unless you are saying "physical death only" but then what's the point of "the physical"?

Adam and Eve died. The Bible does not speak of an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and continues living elsewhere. When God sentenced Adam to death, He told Adam that he would return to the ground, "For dust you are, and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) Adam no longer exists. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal torment. (Romans 5:12)

 

[rusra02]

Obviously, you take your listings as prophesies of some kind. Let's see.

Matthew 24:7
"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."
​

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Your interpretation is such an exaggeration that it's not worth addressing.

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

"Faster" isn't what was prophesied.

2 Timothy 3:1-3
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
​

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Nothing about "increasing" in the text.

Ecclesiastes 8:9
9 All this I saw, as I applied my mind to everything done under the sun. There is a time when a man lords it over others to his own[a] hurt.
​

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

I think any clear-thinking, honest-hearted, rational person would see these for what they are: an attempt on your part to pervert scripture so as to look like prophesy. As I pointed out, you have either misstated their message, or like to confer some kind of special ability in stating the obvious, which is, things will continue as they have been. While things may not have continued as they were, considering the history of man up to that point it's a far safer bet they would. Thus the prediction they would really isn't anything to write home about. What would be remarkable and worthy of note is the prediction of an unforeseeable and unique change that actually happened. Alas. we have no such thing.

As they were when the predictions were made, which leaves the question of why anyone should assign their cause to some stepping away from god. Just because the Bible says so? Gotta first establish why anyone should listen to it, and what you've cited simply doesn't do the trick.

You seem to have missed the point of my post, that man cannot successfully live independently from God. The deplorable situation mankind is in today is proof of that. I was not stating these facts as indicating fulfillment of prophecy, but it is interesting ALL these horrendous events are happening at the same time to the unprecedented degree we see today. Yes, war, suffering, and natural disasters are nothing new, but the scale of what we have seen in the 20th and now the 21st century is unique in human history. So now that you mention it, these events do indeed signal that we are living in the last days of this wicked system. God will not tolerate man's actions for much longer. (2 Peter 3:9,11)
I suppose it's human nature to deny the danger they are in and take no note. (Matthew 24:38,39)

 

[Pegg]

Um... What? You're kidding right? Man is perfectly capable of making moral decisions without direction from God.

yes of course we are

but where our moral direction comes from can make a huge difference to the outcome of our decisions

 

[Pegg]

Satans greatest lie is in convincing many that he does not exist and that all the evil in the world is inherent within ourselves and is created by God himself.

here's an interesting take on Satan.

“The devil’s triumph lies in eluding the direct grasp of man. He is ambiguity incarnate; we never know which mask it is that hides him. . . . It is dangerous not to believe enough in the devil; for to imagine that he does not exist is to do his own work for him. . . . It is no part of wisdom to underestimate an enemy. It is stupidity to cultivate an ignorance of the enemy to the point of blindness to his existence, for in such blindness it is impossible to face an enemy, let alone hold him at bay or conquer him.” Satan, published by Sheed and Ward

 

[filthy tugboat]

Satans greatest lie is in convincing many that he does not exist and that all the evil in the world is inherent within ourselves and is created by God himself.

here's an interesting take on Satan.

“The devil’s triumph lies in eluding the direct grasp of man. He is ambiguity incarnate; we never know which mask it is that hides him. . . . It is dangerous not to believe enough in the devil; for to imagine that he does not exist is to do his own work for him. . . . It is no part of wisdom to underestimate an enemy. It is stupidity to cultivate an ignorance of the enemy to the point of blindness to his existence, for in such blindness it is impossible to face an enemy, let alone hold him at bay or conquer him.” Satan, published by Sheed and Ward

Or that could be completely wrong... There's that option too.

Hell, if you really thought this was credible then just replace 'Satan' with Loki and suddenly you have a whole new religion that has just as much credibility.

 

[Koldo]

Or that could be completely wrong... There's that option too.

Hell, if you really thought this was credible then just replace 'Satan' with Loki and suddenly you have a whole new religion that has just as much credibility.

On a side note, Loki is a much more interesting character.

 

[Skwim]

Again, the world we live in is the strongest proof that independence from God leads to suffering, wickedness, and death.

' challenge: Care to substantiate that claim?
Claiming it does not make it so...

Let's take an inventory: . . . .

Obviously, you take your listings as prophesies of some kind. Let's see.

You seem to have missed the point of my post, that man cannot successfully live independently from God.

If that was your point then I fail to see the significance of the prophesies you posted. All that would be necessary is to list all the present-day ills.

I was not stating these facts as indicating fulfillment of prophecy, but it is interesting ALL these horrendous events are happening at the same time to the unprecedented degree we see today.

So although meaningless, you posted them as points of interest rather than list all the present-day ills.

. . . man cannot successfully live independently from God.The deplorable situation mankind is in today is proof of that.

Unfortunately, you established absolutely no cause-effect relationship here: "independence from God leads to suffering, wickedness, and death.." Merely claiming this is the case simply isn't enough. So you're back at square one where jarofthoughts challenged you to "substantiate that claim."

 

[Pegg]

Unfortunately, you established absolutely no cause-effect relationship here: "independence from God leads to suffering, wickedness, and death.." Merely claiming this is the case simply isn't enough. So you're back at square one where jarofthoughts challenged you to "substantiate that claim."

independence has led mankind to ignore 2 of the most fundamental moral laws that hold the fabric of society together

You must not murder
Murder is a very common place thing in our world. Even though it is etched into our psyche that murder is wrong, we still do it and we do it on a huge scale for all sorts of reasons.

You must not commit adultery
Cheating is common place in our world even though everyone agrees that it is morally wrong to cheat. marriages are destroyed by cheating husbands and wives, children are abandoned when families break up. Adultery is destructive to the family unit which is the foundation of every community and society


If we were dependent on God and his laws, our societies and family life would be vastly different in just these 2 areas.

 

[filthy tugboat]

independence has led mankind to ignore 2 of the most fundamental moral laws that hold the fabric of society together

You must not murder
Murder is a very common place thing in our world. Even though it is etched into our psyche that murder is wrong, we still do it and we do it on a huge scale for all sorts of reasons.

You must not commit adultery
Cheating is common place in our world even though everyone agrees that it is morally wrong to cheat. marriages are destroyed by cheating husbands and wives, children are abandoned when families break up. Adultery is destructive to the family unit which is the foundation of every community and society


If we were dependent on God and his laws, our societies and family life would be vastly different in just these 2 areas.

How does this relate to substantiating your claims? I personally have never committed adultery or murder so you can remove that we.

 

[Skwim]

independence has led mankind to ignore 2 of the most fundamental moral laws that hold the fabric of society together

You must not murder
Murder is a very common place thing in our world. Even though it is etched into our psyche that murder is wrong, we still do it and we do it on a huge scale for all sorts of reasons.

You must not commit adultery
Cheating is common place in our world even though everyone agrees that it is morally wrong to cheat. marriages are destroyed by cheating husbands and wives, children are abandoned when families break up. Adultery is destructive to the family unit which is the foundation of every community and society


If we were dependent on God and his laws, our societies and family life would be vastly different in just these 2 areas.

Doesn't compute because there are many, many, many people who don't give a hoot about being dependent on your god and they don't commit murder or adultery. As a matter of fact, quite a few of those who do worship your god have committed murder, and a great number of them have committed adultery---and let's not have any of this "they weren't real believers."

 

[jarofthoughts]

independence has led mankind to ignore 2 of the most fundamental moral laws that hold the fabric of society together.

If we were dependent on God and his laws, our societies and family life would be vastly different in just these 2 areas.

Right.
Let's see if I can utterly and completely destroy this...aww, let's be nice and call it an argument.

You must not murder
Murder is a very common place thing in our world. Even though it is etched into our psyche that murder is wrong, we still do it and we do it on a huge scale for all sorts of reasons.

This map (http://pocketcultures.com/topicsoftheworld/files/2009/06/map-importance-of-religion-by-country.png) from Wikipedia shows how religious various countries around the globe is and as I'm sure you'll notice almost all the countries in the Northern parts of Europe are all classified as either Least or Less Religious. (If you don't think Wikipedia is to be trusted on this I'll be happy to provide independent sources).
By your reasoning, these countries should be the murder capitals of the world, right? I mean, countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France, Iceland, Finland, England, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Germany, and so on, are all countries in which the majority are Atheist or non-religious, so they should, according to you, be murderous hell-holes compared to the rest of the world.
And yet, the homicide statistics indicate that all of these countries prove to be some of the most peaceful and safe countries in the world, resting firmly at the bottom of the list when it comes to homicide. (List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Utterly and completely refuted.

You must not commit adultery
Cheating is common place in our world even though everyone agrees that it is morally wrong to cheat. marriages are destroyed by cheating husbands and wives, children are abandoned when families break up. Adultery is destructive to the family unit which is the foundation of every community and society.

It's hard to measure adultery and finding accurate statistics is difficult, but since you mentioned divorce, let's consider that as a reasonable measuring-stick.
The Barna Research Group an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research studied divorce rates in America and in 1999 this is what they came up with: (U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas)

Religion and % that have been divorced:

Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Wow... That's like...the exact opposite of what we would expect if your assessment was correct.

Utterly and completely refuted.


Instead it would appear that leaving religion and god behind makes you less violent and murderous, and more faithful and adherent to marriage.

 

[Pegg]

How does this relate to substantiating your claims? I personally have never committed adultery or murder so you can remove that we.

mankind and warfare are the result of independence from God. Warfare is murder even if you think murder might be the wrong term to be used, it is murder. Killing for ones country is murder. every country has an army who are supported by the nation so every nation is responsible for murders committed in the name of warfare.

sorry to be so blunt, but that is the reality.

 

[filthy tugboat]

mankind and warfare are the result of independence from God. Warfare is murder even if you think murder might be the wrong term to be used, it is murder. Killing for ones country is murder. every country has an army who are supported by the nation so every nation is responsible for murders committed in the name of warfare.

sorry to be so blunt, but that is the reality.

Are you defining 'murder' as 'killing'? I think you'd find that definition to be false.

 

[JustWondering]

mankind and warfare are the result of independence from God. Warfare is murder even if you think murder might be the wrong term to be used, it is murder. Killing for ones country is murder. every country has an army who are supported by the nation so every nation is responsible for murders committed in the name of warfare.

sorry to be so blunt, but that is the reality.

What I find amusing about this is that if there was an all-powerful god that really loved us it would not allow all this murder and suffering. Yet, the murder and suffering continues. I guess god really doesn't care after all.

 

[PolyHedral]

mankind and warfare are the result of independence from God.

God directly ordered several wars.

 

[jarofthoughts]

mankind and warfare are the result of independence from God. Warfare is murder even if you think murder might be the wrong term to be used, it is murder. Killing for ones country is murder. every country has an army who are supported by the nation so every nation is responsible for murders committed in the name of warfare.

sorry to be so blunt, but that is the reality.

How peaceful a nation is can also be measure to a certain degree with the help of what we call the Global Peace Index (Global Peace Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
And wouldn't you know it... Again the most secular nations are at the top, being the most peaceful nations on the planet.

Again, utterly and completely refuted.

Anything else you feel like comparing between the most secular and the most religious countries/societies?
Standard of living?
Healthcare?
Unemployment?
Crime?
Infant Mortality Rates?

Bring it on, because I know what the result will be.

Aren't you tired of being wrong?

 

[Pegg]

What I find amusing about this is that if there was an all-powerful god that really loved us it would not allow all this murder and suffering. Yet, the murder and suffering continues. I guess god really doesn't care after all.

thats what you get when you are independent of God

We are self governed and there are power struggles and a fight for resources among the nations

welcome to independence. If mankind was all dependent on God and subject to him, there would be no battles because we would all be united under the one leader and he would determine how resources were to be used. He would govern the world his way and im pretty sure that it would be a very peaceful existence under his rule.

 

[Pegg]

God directly ordered several wars.

in the removal of certain groups of aggressors from a particular piece of land, yes he did. But he always gave the aggressors an opportunity to leave or surrender...unlike many human rulers who kill all indiscriminately

 

[Pegg]

How peaceful a nation is can also be measure to a certain degree with the help of what we call the Global Peace Index (Global Peace Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
And wouldn't you know it... Again the most secular nations are at the top, being the most peaceful nations on the planet.

Again, utterly and completely refuted.

Anything else you feel like comparing between the most secular and the most religious countries/societies?
Standard of living?
Healthcare?
Unemployment?
Crime?
Infant Mortality Rates?

Bring it on, because I know what the result will be.

Aren't you tired of being wrong?

just because a nation is 'secular' does not mean its leaders are not religious... im sure most of them are. Being secular has nothing to do with what i'm talking about.

Even the most religious nations are still independent from God. If they have their own government, then they are independent of God....thats everyone!

 

[jarofthoughts]

just because a nation is 'secular' does not mean its leaders are not religious... im sure most of them are. Being secular has nothing to do with what i'm talking about.

Their leaders are elected by the people.
And the people are not religious, at least, the majority isn't.

Even the most religious nations are still independent from God. If they have their own government, then they are independent of God....thats everyone!

What is that even supposed to mean?
Is this another Theist attempt at moving the goalposts into the unprovable/unmeasurable/non-factual realm?

Sure looks like it.

Can you provide a clear definition of what you mean by "close to god" and how we can measure both it and its effects?