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The Prince of Lies?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by jarofthoughts, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    I have sometimes heard various people of the Abrahamic faiths refer to Satan as the Prince of Lies.
    However, when looking at the scriptures I have been unable to find him lying anywhere.
    Now, I'm far from being an expert on neither the Bible nor the Quran (although I have read both), so I might be missing something.

    My question is this: Why is Satan sometimes referred to as The Prince of Lies? :sarcastic
     
  2. AfterGlow

    AfterGlow Invisible Puffle

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    You have several figures in the Bible that are conflated with Satan, including so-called false gods like Ba'al (Beelzebub). I would suppose that people call Satan the prince of lies as, with figures like Beelzebub, he tries to lure people away from the "true" god and towards false ones with fake promises.
     
  3. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    Well, there is this passage (John 8: 44) in which Jesus states that: "From the very beginning he was a murderer and has never been on the side of truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is only doing what is natural to him, because he is a liar and the father of all lies." and this one (Rev. 12: 9) where John says: "Satan, that deceived the whole world. He was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with him."

    Also there is the serpent in Eden (Genesis 3: 1-20), apparently the fact that Satan made King David decide to take the census (1 Chronicles 21:1), and Paul (2Cor.4: 4) stating that "their minds have been kept in the dark by the evil god of this world."

    But I still have a hard time finding that he actually LIED about anything, even presupposing that the word of god in the bible is the truth... :sarcastic

    In fact, looking at the incident in the garden of Eden, did he not, in fact, tell the exact truth?
     
  4. doppelganger

    doppelganger Through the Looking Glass

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    But was the serpent actually lying?
     
  5. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    In investing in the illusion of being, we trick ourselves into paying more and more investment without substantial capital gains. If that's not a lie, I don't know what is.
     
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  6. rusra02

    rusra02 Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely not. He lied when he told Eve "You positively will not die". (Gen. 3:4)
    That was a lie. Eve and Adam did die. God told them the truth. Satan misled Eve.
    Further, Satan slandered God, implying that by eating the fruit, they could be like God, free to make their own self-determination to decide what is right and wrong, good or bad,completely independent of their Creator. That too, was a lie, one still believed by millions today. History and current events prove conclusively that man cannot successfully make correct moral choices without direction from God.
    Satan has since slandered humans, as he did Job, asserting that no one will serve God for unselfish reasons. Revelation 12:8 says that Satan is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", still spreading lies and false teachings in opposition to God.
    Jesus did not overstate matters when he called Satan the father or originator of the lie.
     
  7. Klaufi_Wodensson

    Klaufi_Wodensson Vinlandic Warrior

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    Um... What? You're kidding right? Man is perfectly capable of making moral decisions without direction from God.
     
  8. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    Humans can indeed determine what is right or wrong, and gods don't play into it.

    In addition, as far as the narrative goes, Adam and Eve died because god barred them from the garden, not directly due to eating the fruit.

    Genesis 3:
    21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    The serpent told them that when they ate the fruit, they would be like God and know good from evil, which God later acknowledged in that above passage. The serpent also said that they would not certainly die, which was true, because eating the fruit did not kill them. They died because God acknowledged that if they continue eating from the tree of life, they'll live forever, and so he barred them from eating from the tree.

    The problem lies with god, and not the serpent. The serpent told the truth. Besides, most Jews I've talked to don't even believe that the serpent was Satan. They typically don't even have a central antagonist figure like Satan. These connections were all formed later by Christians.
     
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  9. yourhopeboundheart

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    often people confuse making selfish moral decisions as being incpable of making correct moral decisions. there are plenty of people, every day, who make correct moral decisions without the direction of any gods - and the few people who make selfish decisions are not always doing so without the 'direction of gods'.

    also, in the story, adam and eve did NOT die when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. sure they died eventually, but there was no reason (besides the god of the garden's word) for them not to assume that would have happened anyway.
     
  10. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    That was part of my point.
    To me it seems he was more truthful in the matter than god was.
     
  11. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    Let's say I grant that point.
    Did Satan tell us to do that?
     
  12. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    But, as has been pointed out, they didn't die from eating the apple.
    That was a lie and the serpent told the truth in that particular matter.
    They died because god denied them the possibility of eating from the Tree of Life.

    So, if I'm reading you right, you imply that I, being an atheist, cannot make correct moral choices? Is that correct?

    Is that a lie?
    Then why the reward of heaven and punishment of hell if not as incentives to serve god for purely selfish reasons?
    Seems to me Satan called it like it was. ;)

    A point you have yet to prove.
    I'm listening.
     
  13. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    "Satan" is "us" doing that.
     
  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Maybe a discussion about lying is more to the point.

    If I wanted to undo your life and living.....your peace....
    is it needful to convince you of something contrary to fact?....no.

    I simply won't tell you everything you need to know....
    and let you draw the wrong conclusion from poor perspective.

    Let's say I would have you divided one against the other.

    I would tell one of you the truth about God.

    I would tell another something scientific.

    Then stand back and watch the two of you call each other ....liars.
     
  15. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Where in the Bible is Satan referred to as the "Prince of lies"?

    I've only seen him called the Father of lies.

    I think it's an important distinction to make.
     
  16. PolyHedral

    PolyHedral Superabacus Mystic

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    Which is why the most rational of us know that reality trumps hearsay.
     
  17. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    It is true that the Bible 'only' calls him the Father of Lies, but I've heard Christians call him Prince of Lies as well.
    However, if you prefer, let's go with Father. ;)
     
  18. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    The Bible certainly refers to Satan as if he was a real entity, but if he is not, then by inference, why would we consider God to be?
     
  19. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    I see what you did there... ;)
     
  20. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    A lie is defined as: "an intentionally false statement."
    Dictionary search results : Oxford Dictionaries Online

    Which means that withholding information, while arguably wrong in certain situations, does not constitute lying.
     
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