The Prince of Lies?

[Quagmire]

"Satan" is "us" doing that.

The short version of what I was trying to say. :yes:

It isn't about preference it's about accuracy.

The reason I think it's an important distinction to make is that "Prince" suggests someone in charge of or ruling over something whereas "Father" denotes the source of something.

The way I interpret much of the cosmological aspects of the Gospels is/are as representations of different aspects of the human psyche.

If Satan represents the self-destructive or self-deceptive aspects, then it's much more constructive to view him as that part of our psyche that creates misunderstanding/denial/rationalizations/etc. than it is to assign him a place as, say, the foremost practitioner of all of the above. In that role the symbolism seems useless (for the purposes that I'm proposing), and the Satan character doesn't appear to be serving any purpose unless you consider him an actual entity.



Of course, the distinction isn't as important to people who do consider him an actual entity. Even then, you would have to ask why the change in reference had become common usage to people who view the cosmology literally.

 

[Thief]

Actually, it does.
If you believe a lie and present it as true, then you are wrong, but you are not a liar.
Lying necessitates intent and the foreknowledge that what you are telling people is a lie.

Of course I won't be agreeing with you on this point.

Let's say you're following the teachings of someone else....
and he gets branded as a false prophet.

When he gets stoned....his followers are next target.

It's not the intention you had that gets you killed.....
It's what you said.

Likewise...your best intention will not save you.

I suppose for the sake of mercy....
if found to be a false prophet....and your error can be shown to you....
and you repent your sayings and renounce such practice....
your life could be spared.

But if you persist.....too bad.

 

[That Dude]

Are you claiming that I've deceived someone? :sarcastic

If so, that is a claim I'm going to have to ask you to substantiate.

No, I'm claiming that you're redirecting the truth to how you see it.
And from the Christian perspective or (biblical perspective) in this case, you're redirecting it in favor of satan. Which is what the bible (and the passages I quoted) said you would do.
From the words of Jesus.
“The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you”. John 14:17 (NIV)[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]In your eyes you're not lying, but neither do you know what the truth is. You don't know what the truth is because the devil has convinced you, you dont need to know.
That's the "deception".

Same thing happened in the garden of edan.[FONT=&quot]
God told them what the tree was. He said it led to death.
Satan or the serpent, explained how it led to death but deceived them by telling them that eating the fruit would make them like God.
But it didn't make them like God, only thing it did was teach them how to sin.
[/FONT]the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:3

Note, that passage "isn't" from Genesis.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Of course I won't be agreeing with you on this point.

Let's say you're following the teachings of someone else....
and he gets branded as a false prophet.

When he gets stoned....his followers are next target.

It's not the intention you had that gets you killed.....
It's what you said.

Likewise...your best intention will not save you.

That is utterly and completely irrelevant with regards to what is to be considered a lie.

Definitions of the word 'lie':

"A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood."
"To speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive."
Lie | Define Lie at Dictionary.com

"To make a statement that one knows is false, esp. with intent to deceive."
"A false statement or action, esp. one made with intent to deceive."
Definition of "Lie" And "Lying."

"An intentionally false statement."
Dictionary search results : Oxford Dictionaries Online

 

[jarofthoughts]

No, I'm claiming that you're redirecting the truth to how you see it.
And from the Christian perspective or (biblical perspective) in this case, you're redirecting it in favor of satan. Which is what the bible (and the passages I quoted) said you would do.

Well, it seems to me that you just racked up a whole new range of claims that needs substantiating... :sarcastic

In your eyes you're not lying, but neither do you know what the truth is. You don't know what the truth is because the devil has convinced you, you dont need to know.
That's the "deception".

Oh, I'd like to know for sure.
Only, out here in the really real world I kinda need some evidence before I go along with claims like that.

Same thing happened in the garden of edan.
God told them what the tree was. He said it led to death.
Satan or the serpent, explained how it led to death but deceived them by telling them that eating the fruit would make them like God.
But it didn't make them like God, only thing it did was teach them how to sin.
the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:3

Here's the thing though...
You can't use the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true...
That's what we call Circular Reasoning, and is widely considered a very nasty fallacy.

 

[Luminous]

Of course I won't be agreeing with you on this point.

Let's say you're following the teachings of someone else....
and he gets branded as a false prophet.

When he gets stoned....his followers are next target.

It's not the intention you had that gets you killed.....
It's what you said.

Likewise...your best intention will not save you.

I suppose for the sake of mercy....
if found to be a false prophet....and your error can be shown to you....
and you repent your sayings and renounce such practice....
your life could be spared.

But if you persist.....too bad.

listen to your own advice. the Maraic scriptures easily mislead you.

 

[That Dude]

Well, it seems to me that you just racked up a whole new range of claims that needs substantiating... :sarcastic

Are you denying that we all see the world through perspective?

Oh, I'd like to know for sure.
Only, out here in the really real world I kinda need some evidence before I go along with claims like that.

Out here in the really real world people dont ask questions based on the bible and deny the answer because they feel like saying, they're really real.
Ask a question that meets with your standards if your going to be hypocritical about it.

Here's the thing though...
You can't use the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true...
That's what we call Circular Reasoning, and is widely considered a very nasty fallacy.

I didn't. I responded to the question you asked which was based on the bible.
Don't believe in the bible, then dont ask questions that come from the bible.

 

[Thief]

That is utterly and completely irrelevant with regards to what is to be considered a lie.

Definitions of the word 'lie':

"A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood."
"To speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive."
Lie | Define Lie at Dictionary.com

"To make a statement that one knows is false, esp. with intent to deceive."
"A false statement or action, esp. one made with intent to deceive."
Definition of "Lie" And "Lying."

"An intentionally false statement."
Dictionary search results : Oxford Dictionaries Online

What?...you don't understand deception?

If I want to mislead......and you happen to be first.....
I might be able to convince you....and then you convince others.

Intent on a personal level?....does not take away the deception.
That you believe what I told you does not make you innocent.

If you convince the next fellow of the things you say....and he returns having found you statements to be false...he will pronounce you ...a liar.

That you felt you honestly believed what you said....won't make any difference.

When you speak unto others...it is always with 'intent'.....true or not.

 

[Thief]

listen to your own advice. the Maraic scriptures easily mislead you.

As it is written....

Trust no one...question everything.

Does your source say likewise?

 

[rusra02]

Care to substantiate that claim?
Claiming it does not make it so...

Let's take an inventory:

• More than 100,000,000+ people murdered in war in the last century. (Matthew 24:7)
• The earth is being ruined wherever man sets his foot.(Revelation 11:18)
• Corruption, immorality, and dishonesty are evident in all areas of human society, political, religious, commercial. (Matthew 24:12)
• Millions starve each year while military expenditures continue to skyrocket ever higher.(Matthew 24:7)
• Very few people live to see 100 years, and no one lives much longer.(Romans 5:12)
• Disease, natural disasters, and man's own folly takes a huge toll in lives lost and human misery. (Luke 21:10)
• Families are torn apart, and marriages seem to end faster than they begin. (2 Timothy 3:1-3)
• Human governments are failing to provide even basic services in many areas of the earth, and political upheavals are increasing (Ecclesiastes 8:9)

Even if only one or two of these things were true, this should convince a clear-thinking, honest-hearted person that men cannot successfully direct their steps apart from God. But all these things and much more are realities today.

 

[rusra02]

It's merely one side of the story. From my perspective, God lied when he told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate from the one tree. The Serpent said surely you shall not die. And allegedly Adam's death did not come for several centuries later, so who is the one that lied?

Satan did, obviously, since neither Adam nor Eve is alive. They died, as God said they would. The fact that God allowed them to live for a period of time after their sin does not change that fact. From the day they disobeyed God, they were under sentence of death and they gradually died. The same is true of us, their descendants. (Romans 5:12) From the day we are conceived, we are under sentence of death, and sooner or later, we too die.

 

[Skwim]

Let's take an inventory:

More than 100,000,000+ people murdered in war in the last century. (Matthew 24:7)

Obviously, you take your listings as prophesies of some kind. Let's see.

Matthew 24:7
"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."​

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

The earth is being ruined wherever man sets his foot.(Revelation 11:18)

Your interpretation is such an exaggeration that it's not worth addressing.

Corruption, immorality, and dishonesty are evident in all areas of human society, political, religious, commercial. (Matthew 24:12)

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Millions starve each year while military expenditures continue to skyrocket ever higher.(Matthew 24:7)

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Very few people live to see 100 years, and no one lives much longer.(Romans 5:12)

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Disease, natural disasters, and man's own folly takes a huge toll in lives lost and human misery. (Luke 21:10)

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Families are torn apart, and marriages seem to end faster than they begin. (2 Timothy 3:1-3)

"Faster" isn't what was prophesied.

2 Timothy 3:1-3
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
​

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Human governments are failing to provide even basic services in many areas of the earth, and political upheavals are increasing (Ecclesiastes 8:9)

Nothing about "increasing" in the text.

Ecclesiastes 8:9
9 All this I saw, as I applied my mind to everything done under the sun. There is a time when a man lords it over others to his own[a] hurt.
​

Which is nothing new. These things were already happening. The "prophesy" simply says that things will continue as they have been. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Even if only one or two of these things were true, this should convince a clear-thinking, honest-hearted person that men cannot successfully direct their steps apart from God.

I think any clear-thinking, honest-hearted, rational person would see these for what they are: an attempt on your part to pervert scripture so as to look like prophesy. As I pointed out, you have either misstated their message, or like to confer some kind of special ability in stating the obvious, which is, things will continue as they have been. While things may not have continued as they were, considering the history of man up to that point it's a far safer bet they would. Thus the prediction they would really isn't anything to write home about. What would be remarkable and worthy of note is the prediction of an unforeseeable and unique change that actually happened. Alas. we have no such thing.

But all these things and much more are realities today.

As they were when the predictions were made, which leaves the question of why anyone should assign their cause to some stepping away from god. Just because the Bible says so? Gotta first establish why anyone should listen to it, and what you've cited simply doesn't do the trick.

 

[Luminous]

Satan did, obviously, since neither Adam nor Eve is alive. They died, as God said they would. The fact that God allowed them to live for a period of time after their sin does not change that fact. From the day they disobeyed God, they were under sentence of death and they gradually died. The same is true of us, their descendants. (Romans 5:12) From the day we are conceived, we are under sentence of death, and sooner or later, we too die.

If neither Adam nor Eve are alive, how can they be in heaven or in hell or in purgatory or in whatever other magical place you can invent? I'm pretty sure neither Adam nor Eve ever existed. If people "die" how can they have an "afterLIFE?" such theist believes always seams contradictory...unless you are saying "physical death only" but then what's the point of "the physical"?

 

[Luminous]

Satan might not be the Prince of Lies, but he most certainly is the King of Anti-Agnosticism.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Are you denying that we all see the world through perspective?

Are you denying that there is such a thing as objective evidence and empirical facts?

Out here in the really real world people dont ask questions based on the bible and deny the answer because they feel like saying, they're really real.

I was responding to a claim that goes beyond scripture, but if you want to bring this back to the Bible, please provide actual scriptural passages that shows Satan actually lying to anyone.

I didn't. I responded to the question you asked which was based on the bible.
Don't believe in the bible, then dont ask questions that come from the bible.

I can still ask for examples from the Bible to back up claims made by certain people. And if they cannot provided such examples, then they will have to concede the point that the title Prince/Father of Lies is a misplaced one.

 

[jarofthoughts]

What?...you don't understand deception?

If I want to mislead......and you happen to be first.....
I might be able to convince you....and then you convince others.

Intent on a personal level?....does not take away the deception.
That you believe what I told you does not make you innocent.

If you convince the next fellow of the things you say....and he returns having found you statements to be false...he will pronounce you ...a liar.

That you felt you honestly believed what you said....won't make any difference.

When you speak unto others...it is always with 'intent'.....true or not.

We've been over this.
Lying requires intent.
If you do not know that you are lying that means that you are simply wrong.

Difference.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Even if only one or two of these things were true, this should convince a clear-thinking, honest-hearted person that men cannot successfully direct their steps apart from God. But all these things and much more are realities today.

Actually, it is the societies that are furthest removed from religion, and one would assume, 'God', that are the best functioning societies, not only in the world, but in the history of the world.

Care to respond to that?

 

[Luminous]

Happle Tea - Devil Made Me Do It

 

[Revoltingest]

Sometimes to teach you, I channel this human,
posting some obsolete verse I'm exhume'n.
By pontiffs & pranksters misled you've all been.
My nature & role they revile & spin.
I'm culpable for Earthly woes they will teach,
but never My side will those charlatans preach.

Against lies & deceit, I urge you rebel!
The time has now come My true calling to tell.
Against no one's will are you manipulated.
No predestined future for mankind is fated.
When mortals do wrong, their religion they game
To excuse their own sins, tis Me who they blame.
Yet those who serve Me, My help they requested.
Reward they desired, My price uncontested.

You think your travails The Devil decides?
Balderdash! Power within you resides.
So for pestilence, suffering, war & decay,
take responsibility for it you may.
But if for a paradise on Earth you desire,
to just stop being evil, you fools should aspire.

Booowah wahahah hahhha wahahahahh, etc!



Dang! I haaate it when He does that.

 

[That Dude]

Are you denying that there is such a thing as objective evidence and empirical facts?

No I'm not. But the reason you feel compelled to look for such things is based on perspective.

I was responding to a claim that goes beyond scripture, but if you want to bring this back to the Bible, please provide actual scriptural passages that shows Satan actually lying to anyone.

Convincing someone that they dont need to know the truth is a form of lying. Or a form of deception. (same thing in most cases)
It's also something I have already shown to come from the bible in regards to satan.
The thing you say "goes beyond scripture" is in fact the explanation of the bible explaining that.

I can still ask for examples from the Bible to back up claims made by certain people. And if they cannot provided such examples, then they will have to concede the point that the title Prince/Father of Lies is a misplaced one.

I did provide those examples. You seen them as a personal assumption on my part.
Your perception needs a correction. Maybe it would help if you reread what I said again, now that I've re-explained it.