mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Can you learn that this type of answer is not evidence of anything, other than you don't understand evidence.
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The One Cause of Poverty That’s Never Considered
- Thread starter Stevicus
- Start date
Can you learn that this type of answer is not evidence of anything, other than you don't understand evidence.
It's not offered as evidence.
That should be obvious.
It's criticism of his making up an argument
that he attributes to people not making it.
PureX
Veteran Member
Poor people are poor because the well off want it that way, yes. But the real difficulty is that the well off cannot and will not see themselves as being unkind or unjust or selfish in that way. So they will never correct a flaw that they cannot acknowledge even exists. Which is why the problm remains unresolved, and is getting worse.
I have never met or known anyone that was well off in life that didn't 100% believe that he/she deserved it. That he/she had "earned every penny they got" by working harder and smarter than those who got less. Even those who inherited their wealth still think they "earned it" somehow. That they "deserve" to have it. And any suggestion that they were just lucky, or privileged, or excessivey rewarded brings on a whole litany of justifications and excuses.
Not only do they believe they deserve to have more because they earned it, but they believe they suffered more than most in the process of getting it. And again, they fully believe this even when it's patently and absurdly untrue. So, when anyone dares to suggest that these people should perhaps be giving more of their acquired wealth back to the society from which they acquired it, they become outraged and insulted as though we had suggested that they be systemically raped and robbed of all their hard-earned and rightfully owned possessions.
And because money represents the power of life and death, of security and vulnerability, of happiness and sorrow, and of respect or ill repute, those who have it are in control of all these things to the degree that such control is available to we humans. And they use that control first and foremost to maintain it. And second and foremost to increase it.
So it's the problem itself that ensures it will not be fixed, because it cannot see itself as even being a problem.
I have never met or known anyone that was well off in life that didn't 100% believe that he/she deserved it. That he/she had "earned every penny they got" by working harder and smarter than those who got less. Even those who inherited their wealth still think they "earned it" somehow. That they "deserve" to have it. And any suggestion that they were just lucky, or privileged, or excessivey rewarded brings on a whole litany of justifications and excuses.
Not only do they believe they deserve to have more because they earned it, but they believe they suffered more than most in the process of getting it. And again, they fully believe this even when it's patently and absurdly untrue. So, when anyone dares to suggest that these people should perhaps be giving more of their acquired wealth back to the society from which they acquired it, they become outraged and insulted as though we had suggested that they be systemically raped and robbed of all their hard-earned and rightfully owned possessions.
And because money represents the power of life and death, of security and vulnerability, of happiness and sorrow, and of respect or ill repute, those who have it are in control of all these things to the degree that such control is available to we humans. And they use that control first and foremost to maintain it. And second and foremost to increase it.
So it's the problem itself that ensures it will not be fixed, because it cannot see itself as even being a problem.
Heyo
Veteran Member
There are many "barriers to starting a business" which are absolutely necessary. So when agreeing with a neo-liberal on this, one has to be very careful. So I do agree with all the disclaimers in tact that there is some stupid over regulation.I'd add to that list....
- Inadequate education system.
Expensive to fix this, but cost effective.
- Government created barriers to starting a business.
Zero cost to fix, so maximum cost effectiveness.
One example of many....
Opinion | Why Does a Hair Braider Need a License? (Published 2022)
Such requirements raise entry barriers to professions that can disproportionately affect racial minorities.www.nytimes.com
And the education system in the US is created to perpetuate bad education for poor people by binding the school budgets to the property tax.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You should be a bit more precise. The rich pay that percentage of income taxes. They do not pay that percentage of all taxes. The poor still pay sales tax, and if they have bad habits, such as smoking which often accompanies poverty, they pay tax on that too. And then there is property tax. Since they are renters they do in reality pay those taxes. The landlord does not give them a lower rate because they are poor.The top 50% of taxpayers in the US pay 97.7% of all taxes.
The top 1% of taxes payers pay at a rate 8 times higher than the average paid by the bottom 50%.
Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data
Maybe they should have done a little more homework.
Also I think it is a false narrative that the rich's ability to make money keep the poor, poor. That is not how the economy works.
There is certainly no guarantee that increasing taxes on people already paying the lion's share of taxes is going to solve poverty.
Politicians have their own agenda for all of that tax money.
So what is the answer being offered? The affluent have to start living more like the poor?
That way I suppose the poor will feel better about being poor.
IMO, the real problem of poverty is culture.
Culture of Poverty
They still; pay a lower percentage of taxes than others, but it is not as one sided as those that site only income tax make it out to be.
Duh!
We both want surgeons & real estate agents to be licensed.
But I'm addressing un-necessary ones that keep people in poverty,
eg, requiring 2,000 hours of cosmetology course work just to braid hair.
(This happened in Los Angeles until sued by libertarians.) Hair braiders
had to meet far more education requirements than cops.
Which poses the greater danger to society....hair braiding or
giving a kid a gun with a license to kill?
It's still a problem in many states.
Braiding - Institute for Justice
Hair braiding lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Morbi accumsan aliquam elit, vitae suscipit nibh varius vel.
ij.org
government imposes upon the poor & others with difficulties.
Heyo
Veteran Member
And we agree on this and probably on a lot of other unnecessary hurdles.Duh!
We both want surgeons & real estate agents to be licensed.
But I'm addressing un-necessary ones that keep people in poverty,
eg, requiring 2,000 hours of cosmetology course work just to braid hair.
(This happened in Los Angeles until sued by libertarians.)
It's still a problem in many states.
There are many other wrongful barriers to succeeding thatBraiding - Institute for Justice
Hair braiding lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Morbi accumsan aliquam elit, vitae suscipit nibh varius vel.
government imposes upon the poor & others with difficulties.
And we also might agree on most necessary. But my experience with libertarians is that they tend to view consumer protection and environmental protection as unnecessary (not you personally).
My experience with non-libertarians is that they
want government over-controlling everything.
How's that for a tit for tat?
Is it though? Seems to work pretty well in Scandinavia, no?
I think a better perspective is that economic systems are another type of man-made machine, and ALL machines need monitoring and tweaking. It's silly to imagine a machine that you can just turn on, and it will run perfectly and indefinitely, without interventions.
Government works hard to keep the poor poor.
How else, you ask?
By fleecing them for fines, & by stealing their property.
Civil forfeiture allows cops to legally steal money, cars,
& homes. Then it's up to the victim to prove they're
innocent of any crime in order to have the right to apply
for the return of their property. This typically costs more
than the value of what was stolen, so they don't fight it.
They're easy pick'ns for government.
www.forbes.com
How else, you ask?
By fleecing them for fines, & by stealing their property.
Civil forfeiture allows cops to legally steal money, cars,
& homes. Then it's up to the victim to prove they're
innocent of any crime in order to have the right to apply
for the return of their property. This typically costs more
than the value of what was stolen, so they don't fight it.
They're easy pick'ns for government.
New Proof That Police Use Civil Forfeiture To Take From Those Who Can’t Fight Back
Across the U.S., law enforcement uses a process called civil forfeiture to take property without charging people with a crime. New research confirms that the targets are often people with the least ability to fight back.
www.forbes.com
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
You should check out comparisons of all expenses a middle class family have say in Germany versus the US.
Note it is a mine field for how to do it, but here is my take on it as for the totality of not just Germany versus the US.
Well functioning enough welfare states result in less money in the hands of people but for poor and middle class, once they try to cover for they get for those higher taxes in the non-US they end up with less money in the US.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
There's one thing in this that always get me mad. "Work ethic". Compare these people.
Mr Bornrich: I never do any work but it's really important that other people do. I don't want to clean my own toilets.
Mr Middleclass: I'm not that fond of my job but it pays the bills and I need to work enough to make sure I don't get fired.
Mr Lucky: I really enjoy my job and it pays well enough to get by. I look forward to going to work every day.
Mr Poor: I get just enough pay so I can't claim government help. I hate the work I have to do, but I can't find anything better. I do as little as I can get by.
To expect all these people to have the same work ethic is ridiculous.
(This is not aimed at you personally @Nakosis).
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, you forgot Mr. Unlucky, Really Unluck: I can't work and it is defect in my brain and you can't see it.
That is me.
I don't envy you.
My brain defects were less trouble.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
In philosophy that has a field in regards to morality. The problem of luck in regards to morality. It is not my fault that I can't work and I don't demand to be rich. I just would like a good enough life. Is that fair, if it means some people have to pay taxes in order for that to happen?
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Life isn't fair when it hands out ambition, intelligence,
mental health, physical health, station in life, & random
life changing events. We choose to value intelligence,
drive, & honesty...but luck confers those traits upon us.
What we're entitled to is decided by society, so I can't
say whether you should or shouldn't be provided with a
good life. But it appears to be useful for a stable society
to provide some level of support.
Heyo
Veteran Member
:friendly:
Yeah there are a lot of different issues one runs into dealing with folks. One things though is I never blamed them for the circumstances they were in. Seemed a waste of time when the point was to motivate them to find a path to happiness. It's not up to me to determine what that path is but to help if I can and certainly not get in their way.
I found most people simply want to be appreciated for what they can contribute at whatever level they are able to. Maybe not everyone but enough keep the economy running.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Especially "Right-Libertarians".
According to an old figure that I can't verify as still being true, the FBI had estimated that white-collar crime rips off 4 times the $ than all the street crimes combined.