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Featured The Nature of Christ

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Short? Bruh I referenced two whole chapters of Revelation in my last post! :fearscream:

    Now see, here's where the Hypostatic Union starts to get brain-breaking, and firmly into the realm of what we Byzantines (Catholic and Orthodox alike) term a mystery. It's like being in the ocean and looking out--the water gets bluer and more opaque until we can't reasonably make anything else out. Jesus certainly does have His human spirit, yet that human spirit is also united perfectly to His Divine Person, and as we know, God is everywhere in a way that our human spirits can't be. This of course is something common to the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit--all three of them are fully present together throughout all of creation.

    Yes, I would assume that Jesus' physical body still has some kind of physical limitations on it.

    In a symbolic sense, yes.

    If Jesus wasn't truly human like the Docetists and a lot of Gnostics said, things would be a LOT easier to understand, haha.

    In the Catholic and Orthodox churches, we teach that Jesus resurrected in His same body, except now it was transformed and glorified. We know that He invited His disciples to touch His body and examine the wounds from the crucifixion (John 20:27), and Jesus ate something to prove to the Apostles that He wasn't just a ghost (Luke 24:37-43).

    So, I wouldn't see how christ is in heaven in flesh and spirit but then on earth as just spirit (in some churches) but as a sacramental meal rather than human being (like you and I) in Catholic churches.

    Yeah, the Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are content to just say "It's a mystery--glory to God!" When the priest distributes the Eucharist to the people, he says "The servant/handmaid of God _________ receives the most precious, holy Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and for life everlasting, amen." We know that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, and that the Eucharist is His body and blood. To use Catholic terminology, when we receive the Eucharist, we receive His "body, blood, soul and divinity". However, the Byzantines are content to let the exact details of how that is just be a mystery. We look at the Romans and their attempts to come up with explanations about the Faith and say "Dude, CHILL! You don't have to have a metaphysical, logical explanation for literally everything!" :p

    To a Byzantine mind, the Eucharist is for eating, not adoring, even if Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.

    Oh, you don't know the half of it. :p I don't either, anyway...

    I would add that the Son is the Creator, as per John 1:3. The Father is the Source of the Trinity, as He begets the Son and it is from the Father that the Holy Spirit proceeds (John 15:26).
    It depends on how you define "divine". The word "divine" can either mean "of/for God" (like the Divine Liturgy), or it can mean "being God", such as with the members of the Trinity. In my mind, "divinity" is solely associated with the latter definition.

    Lol, were this a thread about the intercession of the Saints, I could make a couple qualifiers here. :p But I won't. But yes, you're right, Mary and the Saints are divine, in the sense that they are of/for God, but they do not possess Divinity, i.e. the quality of being God.

    What do you mean by "holocaust"?

    ...in His full and unadulterated glory without frying us to a crisp. Otherwise yes.

    So did God decide to be a human, or did God create a human to be His image? :) If you ask a Catholic or an Orthodox that question, we would answer the former.

    Let me know if you ever decide to visit it. :)

    #americanproblems

    Yes, but how that is we don't exactly know or attempt to explain. We don't use the Roman Catholic explanation of "accidents and essence" to try and rationalize it. We just let it be what it is.

    Yes, we admit the guilt of our sins, and then our sins are blotted out and erased by God's mercy when we receive absolution.

    Perhaps I misspoke. I said the cosmos itself would be redeemed--i.e. the physical universe. IDK how the Judgement will play out for all the people in the cosmos, but I can hope that all are saved and none are lost.
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Haha. You got me chuckling a bit.

    Haha. Maybe because they made sense to what you were saying. Sometimes people have full scriptures and I can't connect them intelligently to what they're trying to say. It's like they're struggling trying to say something in their own words, keeping with the bible (which is odd since I'd assume one's own words would not literally come from the bible but be natural), and then confirm their position with another half of actual scripture. No one believes me when I tell them, I'll take your word for it.

    Actually, I didn't realize the Roman Church tried to explain it until I went to one of the largest or the Largest Parishes in the states where I talked about in DC. Their bookstore alone has so many apologetics, bibles, commentaries, commentaries on the commentaries, etc. But mind you, a lot of Catholics I'm around really don't look into the logistics in it just the practice and what they experience during Mass and participation in the sacraments. Other than that, leave it to the theologians, type of thing. Many older Catholics were told not to read their bibles. I learned that from a Catholic retreat I went on. From a protestant background, I was shocked.

    I honestly do think you guys make it complicated, though, with the trinity. It's a mystery, yeah, but saying Jesus Is god and the Holy Spirit and all of that isn't needed. They don't need to be integrated to share the same divinity. Like I don't need to be my mother to have some of her blood in me. I'm on the JW side, though, with the trinity. There are a lot, I mean a lot of verses and context that jesus is not god himself. Even the "We" in Genesis and god "sending someone" etc....the English words and language does not make Jesus god in any shape or form. They share the same divinity yea, but once you make god flesh, he is, my definition, no longer god (well, christianity isn't the only god-religion but case in point).

    On that note, because christianity isn't the only god religion, christianity is the only one I know that equates a human to god. No other god religion even Pagan religions I know does that. God regardless of how he is defined is totally above or in a separate category. Maybe Hinduism but from the other thread, they would probably explain incarnation differently than how you see god and jesus. Definitely. I think it's a Roman thing. Jews wouldn't equate a human to god. Moses was never equated to god.

    Well, from the Roman Catholic side, that's why it's unusual that the body would be christ literal body in the church, his body as the flesh/mass of people, and body in heaven as well. Jesus would have to be two people or he has a different physical makeup that no would probably see in what we call a human being.

    :( Roman Catholics don't like the word symbolism, dont you know this? :p We try to explain everything.

    No, seriously. The body of christ is the body of people. The Lord's Supper. It's reenacted (lack of better words) so every time there is Mass three times a day every day of the week, we are literally in The Lord's Supper. Jesus is present. The body is present. The sacrificial meal is present. Unless we are hallucinating? :confused:

    Actually, if Jesus was human, truly human, it is a whole lot easier. Because if you are in the image of god and as a human, you are pained, you literally as a man share in the pain of humans. If humans are going through the Passion of Christ, and having his wounds, those wounds are from a human through another human's flesh. The blood of christ is the same blood of humans, type of thing. So, it all connects on how the sacrifice would play out. The resurrection body and spirit would be easier because if we are in the image of god just as jesus was in the image of his father (see the connection), then christians would rise in body and spirit just as jesus. If jesus was an actual human being then there wouldn't be a split between jesus on earth and jesus in heaven because the words "body of christ; and body with different limbs" is no longer symbolic but literal: actual people. It makes the Eucharist and Mass very real because we are not worshiping a person (hands and knees saying god I love you.... kiss his feet and jump on his head) but we are actually being christ by the service to the people and brothers and sisters beside us.

    Worship is communal not one-to-one. That's why I like Catholicism.

    Em. It's christian belief but a lot of it never sat right. It's logical in and of itself. If applying it to life outside the Church, it doesn't make sense. Mathematics makes sense all around the world regardless the language and intellect. But religion, no.

    :D Hey, the Pope's encyclicals are pretty good clear cut reads if you get a chance to find them or online. Gotta be something to learn about the nature of what you believe? Right?

    I agree there. Not many Roman Catholics agree with me, but then, I notice a lot don't agree with each other. Shrugs. What can one do?


    Rats. Word limit.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    I always say this "Through him" not by him. Prepositions and conjunctions are very nice in interpreting the relation-ship between -each- person of the trinity (which does not mean integration)

    It does not mean christ is not god/divine as you defined it. It just means, god speaks through him because christ as a human shares/shows god's characteristics of divinity. When you are god's spokesman, you gotta have some sort of authority but christ didn't give himself credit but god. Therefore, he isn't the father. So....

    I think trinitarians are mixing up the nature of god and christ. The "as one" verse doesn't solve things, either. Why wouldn't the Word the Words/Law of god? Word-meaning dictated Laws of god which Jesus pointed to Moses as the law giver.

    Roman Catholic books can show you a lot. Also, remember, Catholicism isn't sola scriptura. Why do you guys keep saying everything is based on the bible. A lot of it is oral traditions and they are sacred too. A lot of things you believe aren't in scripture and that is okay. Why defend it?

    I equate divinity with sacred. Since I don't believe in a creator, and if I did I don't know how being a creator would automatically make him divine, I'm pretty much see the nature of divinity defined by the culture of the people. A frog and a fly won't see each other as divine. Humans are something.

    lol Why, you guys don't believe in the intercession of the saints?

    Guess we're both tongue tied. Though, no one ever answered what a god is, just his role (creator) and his character (love). If someone asked what I am, I'd say human being. I wouldn't say artist and I wouldn't say free-spirited. These two define me yes, but what is a specific question to my nature that all the other three complement.

    I realized after I took the sacraments, I believe the latter. Only because all the prophets in the bible seem to be intermediaries to god's law. Hebrews says image of. Jesus always points to his father. People are brought in union with the father through christ. I may not be able to spell typing 100 words per hour but I love language.

    Will do.

    LOLOL Literally, symbolically, and historically speaking.

    I never read where they got that from accidents and essence. In the bible, it's pretty simple. This is my blood and body. Come together to remember me in Mass. It's a consecrated sacrificial meal that brings people together to god (not christ the human physical flesh ;)). But RC uses Christ to define the Eucharist rather than sacrifice and consecrated meal. I mean, it's something you eat, so yeah, I agree with your Church there.

    Shrugs. I never thought about the afterlife even after all I been through medically. Probably because the spirits we've seen growing up has always been on earth. Probably (and I'm honest) they have something to tell us. I know they protect us and so forth. I wouldn't call spirits divine or sacred just because they are spirits though.

    Never understood the concept of worship or putting someone on a pedestal. In Catholicism, to me at least it has always been communal.
     
  4. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Yeah, the Orthodox would balk at that. (Though we've got a long way to go before we're overall as passionate about Bible studies as the Protestants, I'll admit).

    It's easier to reconcile these ideas once you understand that Jesus is both fully human AND fully God.

    Haha, yeah. And when the Orthodox use the word "symbol", we mean something completely different than what the Protestants do. In Orthodoxy, when we say that something is a symbol, then that symbol makes manifest that which it symbolizes. The Eucharist is a symbol that makes Christ's body and blood truly present. A symbol isn't a mere sign or reenactment of people long gone or pretend ceremonies with nothing more going on than wishful thinking.The waters of baptism are a symbol that make manifest the remission of sins. The oil of Chrismation makes truly present the gift of the seal of the Holy Spirit. Icons are windows to the people and events that they depict. And so on.

    Yes, we affirm this to be true.
    We're not hallucinating, it is exactly as you said. There is only one Eucharistic meal, celebrated throughout time. Every time we celebrate it, we are mystically celebrating the one and the same Eucharist celebrated by Christ Himself with His Disciples just prior to His crucifixion, celebrated by bishops, priests, monks and martyrs from all centuries and from every corner of the globe, and it is the same Eucharist offered once and for all as part of the one Liturgy in Heaven.

    I think I'm starting to understand your thoughts on this better, and at least on this point I think we're actually in complete agreement.

    I think if we can tease out just a little bit more what we each mean on this point, we'll find that we actually agree. I'll just relate a couple things...

    First off, the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. Whatever we do to someone, we also do to Christ. By the same token, Catholics and Orthodox would see Matthew 5:14-16, where we are spoken of as being the light of the world, and connect it to John 8:12 and John 9:5, where Jesus speaks of Himself as being the Light of the world. Finally, in 1 John 1:7, it states that we are to walk in the light as Christ is in the light.

    Put that all together, and what you end up with is that the light within us is the light of Christ. So whenever we act in the world according to the light that is within us, it is Christ acting through us, as in Galatians 2:20.

    That, and then there's this: (Actually, you might have been the one to share this, I forget)

    Yes. The word "liturgy", coming from liturgia, literally means "work of the people". In Orthodoxy and Byzantine Catholicism, you cannot have a Divine Liturgy without at the very least having one priest and one layperson. Contrast this with private Roman Masses where it's just the one, individual priest. Heck, there was a good period of time where it was impossible to have a Roman Mass with multiple priests concelebrating. This is why, in monastery churches during the medieval era up through the Baroque period, you can often have more than a dozen altars, because a Roman priest is required to say a daily Mass, but for a long time you couldn't have multiple priests officiating the same Mass.

    Yeah, some of them are pretty solid.

    What do you mean by "integration"? Taking John 1:3 into account when reading Genesis, we see all three Persons of the Trinity working together during creation: The Father commanding, the Son being the Word (or Logos) which gives order to the cosmos, and the Holy Spirit Who breathes life into the world (the word for "spirit" and "wind" and "breath" in Greek and Hebrew are the same).

    John 1:1 does. As much as the JW's insist that it should read "a god", if you look at the Greek and the Coptic, "And the Word was God" grammatically signifies that the Word/Jesus is qualitatively God--i.e. He has all the qualities of God.

    I think you missed a few words here? Word-meaning dictated Laws of god which Jesus pointed to Moses as the law giver.

    I suppose you can call it an instinct we've developed in attempting to dialogue and reason with Protestants who are Sola Scriptura. We're used to the familiar refrain of "Show me where it says that in the Bible!" and the obstinate refusal to even CONSIDER a position which draws evidence from extra-Biblical sources.

    Nah, we believe in the intercession of the Saints. But while we believe that Christ is ultimately the only true Savior, we can save others (James 5:20 and Romans 11:14).

    In Byzantine thought, God is unknowable in His Essence (Who He is in Himself). We can only know Him in His Energies (Who He is in interaction with creation).

    This is what we believe as well.

    It comes from Aristotelian metaphysics.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I need to learn how to make one to two sentence comments. ;) like you.

    Fully human and fully god sounds pagan rather than abrahamic in nature, to put it bluntly. Christianity and realizing Bahai too are the only two religions I know that equate human beings with god. If I went off of majority being correct, it wouldn't be christian. A lot of god-believers put god above all. Even in some religions those that have god's characteristics are still subject to him or her in some religions I know that aren't new age.

    If christ was fully human only, god fully spirit only, and holy spirit (which I can't define I just experienced it), it would make more sense.

    Because the creator came before christ was born flesh. Many christians debate that the We in Genesis refers to both christ and the creator but then they say they are one at the same time. When you use English with Greek context, it confuses the person you're talking to. Kind of like talking Spanish in English word order.

    Say christ is fully spirit after his resurrection...see how this is logical (though not Catholic teaching)

    1. Christ was born human. He was human in his practice as a child and when he was baptized, god-the creator-blessed him to his ministry.

    2. So many events happened, teaching is disciples, healing the sick, p/sn' off the jews, and then went through his Passion. I

    If christ wasn't resurrected in body then

    3. The tomb being empty would make sense. When he came back with how you called a glorified body (weird how christians talk) rather than the body that turned to ashes he said to his disciples he'd be back.

    During his teachings, he said to them to worship him in this manner. Remember him in this manner. Everything was all communal. The key point is Christ is only present when more than three people come together in his name. Hence Mass/body of people is needed to make Christ present in the Eucharist. If only one person came to the Church, Roman Catholics have the already consecrated Eucharist under a light so Catholics know when Christ is present.

    I haven't figure that out in relation to scripture but going just off of scripture and not oral tradition as well I'd say christ can only be present in the body of his people. Probably why people go to confession when they miss Mass.

    I mean, you refer to it as symbolic. I don't follow christ anymore, but if I did, he's spirit wouldn't be here now without my being part of the Mass. I can talk to the creator in prayer, but if I want to worship him beyond communication, I need to go to Mass (or bible study, retreat, wherever).

    Yeah. We finally have a bookstore in our parish. Everyone was thrilled.

    Basically the same as Roman Catholicism without the transubstantiation (priest actually blessing the wine and bread as an elder in christ's body -like the Levites-) and different terminology?

    I was good with symbolism until I took the sacraments. I don't think that's an appropriate word for what we are both describing but to each his own, I guess.

    Nods.

    Thanks. Takes awhile. This kinda clears up what I restated in the beginning of this reply.

    Exactly. I read that. I phrased it when you do something for someone else you do for the body of christ (which is christ). Since the two commandments are god (creator) and people, I'd assume when christians do something in the name of christ through the brothers and sisters (body), they are doing for god.

    I can see how you connect god and christ in respects to how they are related to each other. The thing is, they are related-they have relation-ship with each other. That's the difference.

    Nods. Nods again.

    Really? Our parish there are multiple priest, usually two. If not a priest, it's a bishop in training. I know smaller parishes have one priest. We're the largest church in the Virginia area, so I'm told. Not near as big as DC, next to us.

    Why only one priest, though during that time?
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Working together is three separate people working together for the same goal

    Integration is all three people are one person so they can't work together for the same goal since there is only one person

    Trinity doesn't define the nature of the three people together whether working separate or integrated. I mean years ago, my brother, sister, and I work as a trinity to clean the kitchen before our mother gets home, type of thing. Trinity isn't a good word for all three "persons" working together to bring people back to the creator. Collaboration maybe? joint effort?

    I have the qualities of my mother, but that doesn't mean I'm my mother. However, if my mother wanted to pass down the story of her mother, that story would be her sacred (to the family) Words. So she gave me the story to pass it down to my cousins etc since I wont have kids. I became the Word-her spokesperson. Her child. These things title, role, nature, and role does not make me my mother. Same as creator and christ. I mean, it doesn't matter either way. If christ was god/creator, the language is misleading. If christ is the intermediary to god and man, there has to be another word so readers will know he isn't talking about being a way to himself through himself.

    Being human doesn't make you an intermediary. YOu just have a different nature but you still the same person. If you are a different person, you can be go-between. Same people can't be a go between each other. Two different people can.

    Exactly what I was trying to say.

    Pretty much. Ignoring the fact, also, that "there are other teachings other than this...." that one should be aware of if one professes to be christian. I wouldn't say it's necessary to read all of Roman Catholic books and commentary, though. The Catechism is a wonderful book on explaining the basics of the Catholic faith. That, and LightHouse cds did a good job connecting the OT and NT to describe the Eucharist etc.

    Save others? Through service or as saviors?

    That's a weird explanation. I don't like life-force as some others used. Energy is the closest word I'd use for it even though it doesn't sound mystical or flowery.

    Hmm.
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Huh, what's that about?
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Lay Catholics and priests I speak with despise the word symbolism because it devalues the literal concrete nature and experience a catholic actually experience through the sacraments of christ. With the Eucharist, some prefer reenactment if deciding between taking it literally or referring to it symbolically.
     
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    OK, now I think I see where you're coming from.

    My use of the word "symbolism" wasn't in reference to the Eucharist directly but is what wine and bread in general stood for, not only in the Catholic tradition but the Jewish one as well.
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    How does the Jewish tradition of the lords supper relate? They have bread and wine? (Im used to it refering to christ)
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yes, generally speaking there is a blessing of the bread (normally challah) and the wine at the end of each service, followed by an "oneg" (bread, wine, and "finger foods" or an actual meal).
     
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  12. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    LOL, it's a skill I've had to develop (and rekindle) over the course of having lengthy exchanges with people. Either I gotta pick and choose what I respond to, or I keep my responses short and to-the-point, or both.

    One could argue that, but even with gods appearing in human form, typically they do so temporarily. The Christian understanding of "nature", and the hard-and-fast distinction between Creator and created, gives the "fully human and fully God" idea completely different ramifications. Compare this to paganism, where there's not always a clear-cut line between humans, animals, spirits and gods; one can become the other rather freely as the situation requires, and as one becomes more or less powerful.

    Actually, in talking with Baha'is, I've come to learn that they don't equate human beings with God. They say that Jesus, Muhammad, etc. are God, but what they mean by that and what Christians mean by that are two very different things. In Baha'i thought, the Prophets (or Manifestations I think is the term) are simply mirrors off of which God reflects His glory and messages for mankind. The prophets remain purely human, but simply reflect God into the world. This is very different from Trinitarian theology, where Jesus truly is God.

    Except there is no talk of His body becoming ashes in the Scriptures. The body that He resurrected in had the same exact crucifixion wounds. Why would He keep those wounds in a different body?

    I suppose a better way I thought of to express what I mean when we say that the Church is the Body of Christ, is that we are mystically united with Him. The Church is a communion between Christ and all who follow Him. Also, keep in mind that the Church is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:22-23), thus signifying that the Church is not Christ's literal body, but is nonetheless united to Him.

    I wouldn't limit Him in this way, personally.

    I think this goes more to the point of, if Jesus is truly God, then we can talk with Him any time, any place, regardless of how many people are around, whether we are in Liturgy or not. He promised to be with us, even unto the end of the age.

    Essentially, yes.

    The fact that words have different meanings in general, and especially between groups, does make communicating ideas annoying.

    This is also true.

    Yes, this is the Orthodox thought on this as well. The Trinity is one in essence and undivided--the three Persons are one God. And yet the three Persons also have a relationship and a communion between themselves.

    I have no idea, honestly. Medieval Roman theology and shenanigans was never an area of Church history I particularly cared about, TBH.

    It's not just "working together", since they're three Persons who are distinct from one another (i.e. we can distinguish one from the other), but not separate beings. They are one Being, in three different subsistences, or arisings of the same Divine Essence. Translating the Greek word hypostasis into English with the proper nuances is SUPER difficult, by the way. I suppose the visualization I most usually have, is to imagine a spring (this is the Divine Essence). And out of this spring come three distinct fountains. Each fountain is distinct from the other, yet they each emit the same water. Or, imagine water at its triple point, where it can exist simultaneously as a liquid, gas and solid. There are a myriad other metaphors to explain it, each one getting at a different angle of this.

    The Orthodox would addiionally say that the Trinity is one God because there is one Father. He is the source of the Trinity.

    It's tricky to find a word with the exact nuance that I'm looking for, but something like synergy may be close. Synergy literally means "working with", but I'm also thinking of the word synthesis as well. The work of each Person of the Trinity is synthesized. A synthesized synergy? Lol, this is what my brain comes up with at 2:42 AM. :p

    I suppose we should clarify what we both mean when we say that Jesus is an intermediary between God and man, first, because I think this is another area with which we're having difficulty. I might draw out a simple schematic of how I visualize it when I wake up.

    Looking at it again, I think I understand what you mean now. In calling Christ the Word (Greek: Logos), one should also be aware of the philosophical connotations of that term, as it would have been understood in the Hellenist context in which the Gospel of John was written. Greek has two words for "word". One word is "Lexis", which is the term for the combinations of letters and sounds that you type on your keyboard and speak with your mouth. "Logos", however, is another ball game. Specifically, among the Stoics, the Logos was said to be the force that animates and gives order to the universe. Additionally, in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament used by Greek-speaking Jews and Christians during the first century, and by Greek-speaking Christians ever since), it is said in Psalm 33 that "by the word (Logos) of the Lord the heavens were established".

    Yes, reading the entirety of everything the Fathers have ever written would be a decades-long task.

    Ultimately, it's God Who saves, and no one is saved without God. Yet, through working together with Him, we can give advice or counsel to someone to help them through a spiritual struggle, or to come to the Faith in the first place. If you like, we become God's hands, so to speak.

    It's a concept best elucidated by St. Gregory Palamas, but it's now 3:26 AM (I take breaks while writing these responses :p), so I'll come back with a fuller explanation of his concept on this in a few hours.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Good skill. What you doing up 3:26 in the morning? Haha. I just fell to sleep, on the computer unfortunately.

    I guess paganism I mean non jewish and islamic teachings. Christianity came a bit later, especially the Church and mixed with a lot of roman beliefs. As for what pagans belief, christians have so many definitions that it gets kinda diculous for some. I'd probably ask a Pagan about how they define god(s).

    Wow. You explained it better than they did.

    Hey, I said quite not Catholic belief. It just makes better sense spiritually and logically if he was an actual human and not god at all. A human can relate to another human better. A god cannot, by definition.

    Why mystically? When you're a Mass, you're literally united with Christ, in christ, and through christ. The Eucharist is a physical sacramental meal that, if you watched from the parish door, literally brings people together in his name.

    I'd say the body of christ is his literal body just as the supper is the literal supper. If we say the eucharist is actually christ's blood and body, it would make sense the people who unite with god/creator would be christ's body and blood. I can't remember what body and blood signify in the OT. I know it's not literal human sacrifice. That's pure barbaric. We don't have to use mystical terms. It's a sacrificial meal where one lives, dies, and rises in christ through, within, and in the body of the people. Christ always said serve the people in one way or another. Whether if it was through miracles (say bringing someone to life) or feeding
    people (multiple loafs of bread), whatever means. With him it has always been about god/creator (not himself; he didn't give himself credit for what the creator does) and the people.

    It doesn't need to be mystic, though. Maybe when it's explained it looses it's validity or something.

    That's how I personally knew him. If you told me instead the body was uniting with someone invisible with a mystical essence that is the bread and wine, I'd think you guys crazy. The priest said they weren't eating (or hallucinating) that the bread and wine is christ. He just laughed. When you say christ is the body, the limbs of christ, then that I understand.

    It's not limiting, it's just realizing that christ doesn't need to be mystical unite people so they are united with the creator.

    I differ on jesus is god. I just don't see how a creator, if there is a being somewhere, becoming human. When he becomes the people, I understand. You are literally a part of christ, die in him, and experience his passion. When you see him separate, that's creepy, in my opinion.

    Yes, it does. I had to translate my whole entire time in the Church. When I finally got it, I get annoyed with mystical words to explain a relationship quite simple for people who understand it by experience.

    Essence? o_O another mystical term... I'd probably stick with relationship. When you join together in marriage, you become one. You don't become each other. Christ is married to the Church. Why is it mystical when marriage doesn't mean you are both one but separate in union with each other?

    I won't call Greek pagan, but, well, it is. It's not Jewish. Very gentile.

    This relates to the marriage view above. I don't see how their not being one invalidates their nature. Christ is still born as god's son and has been blessed at baptism to ministry. The holy spirit (or spirit, holy is an adjective) of christ still connects the people.The creator is still separate from creation-man and environment (unless you believe in pantheism). Yet, they all work together. Having the same nature doesn't make each person the other.

    If all are one, there couldn't be a source. The Father wouldn't be the Father because he is also the son. The son wouldn't be the son because he is also the spirit of life. So basically, there is no identity. It's like mixing many colors into one and get this big mess instead of making a beautiful picture without needing to combine them to do so.

    ooos! I'll be back. Have a workshop to go to soon. To be continued....

    Wow. I still can edit. @Shiranui117. This is a good convo.

    Haha. How I understand it is, since christ is a human and god is spirit and creator, since in christianity humans can't be in the presence of god because they have sinned, there needs to be a human who has not sin (human who has not sin--I know, oxymoron but not to god, right?) to literally take on a christian's sins (let their sins be his flesh and blood), so when he dies, as it says in galations, "we [would be] are crucified in christ" so you no longer live for yourself, but for the son of god. If jesus were god, you can't be crucified in god given god can't die. You need someone to die in order for someone to live.

    You need to confess in order to be absolved.
    You need to ask for forgiveness before you are pardened
    You need to feel pain before you learn a lesson of healing
    You need to die in order to obtain eternal life

    That's the whole of christ teachings.

    Once you make him god, in my opinion, the whole building falls. You don't learn confession from someone who has no inherited sin. You can't learn forgiveness from someone who has not sinned. You can't learn pain from someone who has not felt pain of the spirit not just the flesh. You can't learn to die when god does not die.

    I don't know much about this above but just to throw something in there. Hellenism and Greek influence are paganism not jewish. That doesn't devalue christianity. I mean, jews don't worship christ; so, christianity started by the Church and apostles. I just find it weird how you guys don't see that.

    Haha. Yeah. I figured I start with the Bible first. Got to Joshua and read the full NT. Would like to finish but I get a weird negative feeling in my chest everytime I pick up the bible. I don't get that feeling in Church. Weird, huh?

    Yep. That's what it means to serve "in christ's name." That's how christ is an intermediary. Without him, christians wouldn't know how to serve because they wouldn't have a human go between to get to god.

    Do tell....
     
    #33 Unveiled Artist, Aug 26, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
  14. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    @Carlita, let me know when you get a chance to finish your thoughts! O: Really enjoying this conversation, BTW :D It's nice to have a pleasant, chill conversation about this kind of thing for a change.
     
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yep, and you two are top-shelf in my book.
     
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  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree and learn something from it too!
     
  17. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    The nature of Christ is all over the map when it comes to theists.

    Seriously, in this country of the supposedly great US of A, we have conservatives who think the nature of Christ is to ensure the rich remain rich while ignoring the plights of the less fortunate.

    I mean seriously, have they even read the bible?
     
  18. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    I work 2-10PM. Most people take about 5 or 6 hours after work to relax, eat, wind down and do fun things before going to bed. I do too--just 5-6 hours later than most other people. :D

    We definitely adopted a lot of the language and some of the philosophy and metaphysics to explain our beliefs, this is true.

    Aha, gotcha.

    There's another book I've got which probably explains this beautifully, but I'll fish it out of my closet tomorrow morning. Stay tuned for that.

    This is remarkably similar to how many of our mystics and Saints explain it.

    Something like that. I should have said that we come into communion with Christ, or a union with Him. The entire life of the Trinity is communion, and by being united to Christ through His Church, we share in that inner life of the Trinity that is communion with Him.

    I differ on jesus is god. I just don't see how a creator, if there is a being somewhere, becoming human. When he becomes the people, I understand. You are literally a part of christ, die in him, and experience his passion. When you see him separate, that's creepy, in my opinion.

    Now this is a good way to explain what I've been trying and failing to say. It also elucidates the idea that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

    Very Gentile indeed. We adapted our message to be able to talk to the people to whom we were bringing the Gospel. But heck, even Judaism was pretty well-saturated with Greek thought at the time. Case in point: Philo of Alexandria, who is more than likely the reason that St. John makes it a point to call Jesus "The Word" right in the first verse of his Gospel.

    This relates to the marriage view above. I don't see how their not being one invalidates their nature. Christ is still born as god's son and has been blessed at baptism to ministry. The holy spirit (or spirit, holy is an adjective) of christ still connects the people.The creator is still separate from creation-man and environment (unless you believe in pantheism).
    Yes, this is true. There is a human nature, an angelic nature, a canine nature, an arboreal nature... And yet all humans are separate, all angels are separate, all dogs are separate, and all trees are separate. However, each one of us has our own essence (I will get a proper breakdown of the Greek word ousia for you in the morning I swear).

    And this is a great reason why we're not Sabellians (i.e. people who believe that God is one God wearing three masks).

    God as God cannot die. But humans can die, so God as a human can die. It's an INCREDIBLY paradoxical situation, but it's the entire reason that Jesus' death and resurrection is able to save us--because in the matchup between God and death, God curbstomps death every single time. Every Easter and Easter season we Byzantines sing "Christ is risen from the dead! By death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life!" In other words, Jesus pulled off the biggest sting/undercover operation in history. As St. John Chrysostom put it in his Paschal Homily, read every year in the Eastern Orthodox churches and their Eastern Catholic counterparts:

    "He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen."

    In other words, God's plan was to break death's hold over humanity from the inside, and to reopen the doors of Paradise for us, so that we might no longer be slaves to sin and death, but have a way back to Him.

    I would add a few more things to this list (the two greatest commandments), but yes.

    This concern can be resolved when you realize that Jesus received Peter back after he had denied Jesus three times. He asked for forgiveness on behalf of others.
    I think this is part of why Jesus had the Apostles, and why the Church is built on the Apostles as well, with Jesus as the cornerstone.

    The shortest verse in the entire Bible: "Jesus wept." Also remember that Jesus was incredibly distraught in the garden of Gethsemane--see Matthew 26:36-46, Mark 14:32-37 and Luke 22:41-44.

    Yes, we are influenced by the language and the philosophy. It shows in how we explain our faith and how we think about it.

    I get the same feeling whenever I see lists upon lists of names and every single logistical description. :D Psalms, Proverbs, Wisdom of Solomon and Wisdom of Sirach are all great reads though.

    I have the resources to explain this queued up, I just want to do the subject proper justice. I'll edit this post in the morning. :D
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I found it! I was thinking of how to explain the Church as the body of christ in union with christ. I guess explaining christ as god is totally confusing the literal nature of salvation through christ and the church to be in union with god. Since christ is flesh and blood, only flesh and blood (Eucharist) can do that. Since the Eucharist brings people together, what (or who) brings the union together is the spirit of christ in the holocaust .... haha lol oh gosh.. now I know why. I'm reading a book called Sarah's Key about the holocaust. I meant Pentecost.

    Gosh, wow.. Here it is.

    1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

    In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.

    1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

    Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191

    :herb:
    In my opinion, this can happen if he was just fully human because he wouldn't have inherited sin and he wouldn't have sinned. The only difference between being fully human and not god is that his humanity would be like us and in his humanity, christians would die in it as the body and united in it. So, humanity, who is in the image of god would be like christ, the human who is in the image of his father.

    When you are god, then you need metaphysical words to explain the connection between a human and god. It's making something mystical when god doesn't have to be mystical to understand his relationship to the people through christ (through him, with him, and in him) not as christ.


    That's kind of like the CC above. For some reason trinity doesn't sound like a good word to describe it. At least from a Church perspective. Protestant a different story.

    That's how I'd see christ and his father. In union with each other (each other are One [marriage]) not being each other, making one of the two non-existant, logically speaking.

    Christ image of his father. Christians are image or in likeness, I think it says, of christ.

    Humanity-->Christ-->Father rather than humanity -->intermediary???-->christ/father

    You, and probably Catholics and liturgical church followers, would probably be the only ones to admit this. Not wrong, just part of history.

    Taking out the mystical language ;) Each person has a soul. Humans are defined by both their souls and their flesh-barebone definition. Christ is human. He has a soul. The difference between his soul and what I understand of christian's soul, is his is divine and christian's are not (inherited sin). That doesn't make him god, just means he is in the image of his father. Christian's are god's children but it doesn't say we are in likeness of him as in his divinity until you die and get a "glorified" body, like christ.

    Yeah. Though not all pagans are like this. I can see why you guys would reject the name.

    Actually, it doesn't have to be. Humans have spirits (or souls, whichever you use) and even though our flesh turns to ashes, our spirits are still on earth. Not christian teaching but what I seen and experienced. Christ would be the same since he is the body of the people. He is flesh and he is spirit. In this case, when his flesh died, his spirit would get a glorified body (assuming that the body he came down with when he visited his apostles). To tell you honestly, I don't know what body he went up with if christians are said to have a glorified body. Unless you guys are raising up with your regular bodies and then have glorified bodies. Then that would be odd, because we cremate people daily. Another interesting thing is, little over 2,000 years isn't that far ago. Stories change to reflect the experiences and testimonies of the people, but not the laws of nature.

     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Is this when christ descended into hell before he went to heaven?

    I haven't learned anything about that to form an opinion.

    That's why I think christ is human. To break death's hold, the flesh has to actually die. When the flesh dies/sacrifices-our sins, then you beat death to be with god.

    Though the language makes it quite confusing. Beautiful though. :)

    How do you learn about confession when the person you confessing to doesn't need to confess himself? I mean, if I were Peter, I'd confess, yes. I mean, I confessed to the priest many of times. However, priests sin. Christ, as written, did not. So I honestly don't see that as a confession but more of a guilt of doing something wrong. More like asking forgiveness to be pardoned (please overlook what I did) not to absolve him (please blot out what I did) from sins.

    Differences between asking for pardon and asking for absolution.

    How do you learn forgiveness from someone who hasn't sinned? That's like learning how to take care of a child from someone who has never been a mother. That doesn't invalidate the woman's advice. It just means, as christ says, she doesn't give herself credit for the knowledge of motherhood that she would give to her own mother that has that advice and experience. So she would say "why call me god. Only your father is good. (sorry, paraphrasing from memory). Or another example is the rising of the dead. The disciples thought christ did it. He, as a human, didn't do that. His faith in god did it. That's why he told, I think the woman and someone else, they needed faith to do the things he does. Hence why people are trying to have strong faith in christ is to do the healings etc that christ have done because those things come from god.

    It can be paradoxical the way one explains it. That, or a huge paragraph!

    Why would god need to weep?

    Nods.

    I haven't' read the full of Psalms. Huge book. Proverbs, yes. Solomon I haven't. Sirach isn't in the protestant bible so I never got a chance to read it. I like Romans, Hebrews, and Galatians. Practically any book that doesn't have war and killing in it.

     
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