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The Nature of Christ

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I came from Mass this morning (paying respects to my grandmas) and was thinkin'

The body of Christ is the people (1 Corinthians 12)

Christ, himself, is a person (John 1:14)

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth....(Word of god) He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:28 and Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mathew 4:4 Yada yada...

Now Christ was born a person to be his father's Word. When he left, he said to believers that when there are more than one present (communion), he is present. So when all are present in worship god, they become christ's body. Because they become christ's body, they are automatically in union with god.

:leafwind: What exactly was christ's body if christ comes back?

I always find something new when I go to Mass once in a few millenia.

:leafwind: Are christians (all denominations) worshiping the flesh-the person? Many people place their face down praying to christ others kiss his feet.

:leafwind: If so, christ comes back, since the physical body came back, are christians supposed to worship the physical body of christ since the spiritual body/body of people doesn't need to make christ present when he would be here physically?

:leafwind: If christ comes back, is he still an intermediary to god (taking out judgement and all of that)?

It got me thinking because in Mass and a presbyterian church I went to a couple of times, they believe that christ is present when people come together. If christ is flesh (not a sacrificial meal but the person hands and feet), then christ cannot physically (hands to feet) be present in communion. But since he isn't present (hands to feet), he can be and that's how christians have union with god through the body of god's people coming together in his son's name.

:leafwind: But if christ comes later on in the future as many christians believe young and old, then who exactly was the "christ" people brought present when they worship him in their churches?

:leafwind: If christ comes back, will christians kiss his feet--are you actually worshiping the person, the human being? How does the body/flesh become the body/people to worship together in union with god and later for the body/flesh to come back for you to worship the body/flesh in order to be in union with god?

:leafwind: Are you supposed to worship god as one body which is christ (anointed body of people) or are you supposed to worship the actual human being (regardless the nature) if he comes physically head-toe as a human being? Will you guys kiss and wash his feet?

In Mass, it's not portrayed as worshiping the person/flesh (head-to-two) but to worship as a group called christ's body in a sacrificial meal. So, when I hear "christ comes again" it sounds redundant...

isn't he already here?

Observations from a Lapse Catholic
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I came from Mass this morning (paying respects to my grandmas) and was thinkin'

The body of Christ is the people (1 Corinthians 12)

Christ, himself, is a person (John 1:14)

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth....(Word of god) He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:28 and Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mathew 4:4 Yada yada...

Now Christ was born a person to be his father's Word. When he left, he said to believers that when there are more than one present (communion), he is present. So when all are present in worship god, they become christ's body. Because they become christ's body, they are automatically in union with god.

What exactly was christ's body if christ comes back?

I always find something new when I go to Mass once in a few millenia.

Are christians (all denominations) worshiping the flesh-the person? Many people place their face down praying to christ others kiss his feet.

If so, christ comes back, since the physical body came back, are christians supposed to worship the physical body of christ since the spiritual body/body of people doesn't need to make christ present when he would be here physically?

If christ comes back, is he still an intermediary to god (taking out judgement and all of that)?

It got me thinking because in Mass and a presbyterian church I went to a couple of times, they believe that christ is present when people come together. If christ is flesh (not a sacrificial meal but the person hands and feet), then christ cannot physically (hands to feet) be present in communion. But since he isn't present (hands to feet), he can be and that's how christians have union with god through the body of god's people coming together in his son's name.

But if christ comes later on in the future as many christians believe young and old, then who exactly was the "christ" people brought present when they worship him in their churches?

If christ comes back, will christians kiss his feet--are you actually worshiping the person, the human being? How does the body/flesh become the body/people to worship together in union with god and later for the body/flesh to come back for you to worship the body/flesh in order to be in union with god?

Are you supposed to worship god as one body which is christ (anointed body of people) or are you supposed to worship the actual human being (regardless the nature) if he comes physically head-toe as a human being? Will you guys kiss and wash his feet?

In Mass, it's not portrayed as worshiping the person/flesh (head-to-two) but to worship as a group called christ's body in a sacrificial meal. So, when I hear "christ comes again" it sounds redundant...

isn't he already here?

Observations from a Lapse Catholic

Whether Christ is here, there, everywhere, nowhere, or now here. Christ is none of the above what you described in this post, because they human anthropomorphic manifestations of people want Christ 'to be or not to be,' that is the question.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Whether Christ is here, there, everywhere, nowhere, or now here. Christ is none of the above what you described in this post, because they human anthropomorphic manifestations of people want Christ 'to be or not to be,' that is the question.

Taking out the anthropomorphic manifestations...

We know there is spirit (the life of a person) and we know there are people (you and I-the shell of a person)

So, the body of christ in scripture says that they are the body of christ (anointed people)

Christ was a human (body-toe) on earth before. He left. The body keeps him present by their communion (gathering of people).

Then when he comes back as a human, who was actually christ when people came in his name to worship him regardless the church (baptist, jehovah witness, catholic, whatever)?

Unless you're saying christ isn't spirit and does not join people to god, what exactly is coming back and are humans worshiping another human (regardless the nature)? It sounds redundant because christ would already be here since people come in his name 24/7 as christians.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Basically, if christ is present when people come together in his name, and he comes back (his physical shell), then who was actually present during communion? and why would a christian want to worship the shell when the shell comes back when christ is always present in the body of his father's people?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Taking out the anthropomorphic manifestations. . .

That is difficult, because they were distinctly a part of your description.

We know there is spirit (the life of a person) and we know there are people (you and I-the shell of a person).

We do not know, but the above is little mechanical of one's beliefs.

So, the body of christ in scripture says that they are the body of christ (annointed people).

Possibly, but not really what scripture 'says' if you take on the broader scope of scripture, and human filter through several languages and cuktures.

Christ was a human (body-toe) on earth before.

I believe this is true but . . .


There is considerable disagreement how he left, and whether he left at all, and possibly experienced the physical fate of us all.

The body keeps him present by their communion (gathering of people).

A distinctly theological claim, and controversial by many,

Then when he comes back as a human, who was actually christ when people came in his name to worship him regardless the church (baptist, jehovah witness, catholic, whatever)?

Only based on a selective interpretation of scripture.

Unless you're saying christ isn't spirit and does not join people to god,

I am not saying Christ is or is not anything, whether joins with anything or anyone or not. I am say what you are describing is limited human interpretation of what Christ is?

. . . what exactly is coming back and are humans worshiping another human (regardless the nature)?

Honest answer is; We do not know.

It sounds redundant because christ would already be here since people come in his name 25/7 as christians.

A very vary human claim based on an overwhelming desire for sense of belonging, and constancy of what is unknown.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hm
Honest answer is; We do not know.

In your particular faith, how do you build factual experiences and share what you know, if, in the end, "we do not know."??

That is difficult, because they were distinctly a part of your description.

I didn't use manifestations. I'm not Bahai so I can't interpret it that way.

In Mass and most liturgical churches people come together in christ's name.

When they come together, in Catholic, Presbyterian, and Catholic-off shoots, they believe christ becomes present in their communion.

When christ (the literal spirit of christ not mystical) is present, people are anointed (literally) and are in union with god.

That's the background of my questions.

We do not know, but the above is little mechanical of one's beliefs.

Does it matter in what I'm asking?

Possibly, but not really what scripture 'says' if you take on the broader scope of scripture, and human filter through several languages and cultures.

Cultures all gather in their particular faiths as one body in worship. Protestant Christianity, eclecticism, new age faiths, and some modern Pagan faiths branch out to be loners. Eastern practitioners are loners compared to other countries like African religions to name one of many.

Unless you don't believe you have a spirit, I don't know what you mean, though.

There is considerable disagreement how he left, and whether he left at all, and possibly experienced the physical fate of us all.

Regardless, my question is since scriptures ays the body of christ is the people and christ is made present in the body comes together in his name, who is coming back? Is christ already here? and if he is coming back as a human being, will christians worship the human being? Will they worship the shell-kiss his feet etc?

A distinctly theological claim, and controversial by many,

Unless you are disagreeing with scripture, both old and new testament, when people had communion, they always had it in god's name (OT) or in Christ name (in NT). There has always been communion throughout scripture.

It depends on what you believe. That's not my point and question, though.

Only based on a selective interpretation of scripture.

That's why it's a question under scriptural debates. No one is right or wrong just I know some christians believe in one way and others believe another. I know Bahai has their interpretation, but as I've said on the other thread, I go with christian view of christian scripture before Bahai validity of it. But everyone can jump in if they want to address the question(s).

I am not saying Christ is or is not anything, whether joins with anything or anyone or not. I am say what you are describing is limited human interpretation of what Christ is?

I'm specifically (not limiting) christ to the spirit with whom is present when more than three people gather in his name. Anything other than that has nothing to do with my questions. Whether he was resurrected in flesh or in spirit doesn't matter. The question is when he comes back, who are christians worshiping (and were) - the spirit of christ through the body or the actual shell that comes back.

A very vary human claim based on an overwhelming desire for sense of belonging, and constancy of what is unknown.

Christians actually believe god and/or jesus is present 24/7. God doesn't have a "I'm taking a break" time in christianity. I don't know about Bahai, though.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I came from Mass this morning (paying respects to my grandmas) and was thinkin'

The body of Christ is the people (1 Corinthians 12)

Christ, himself, is a person (John 1:14)

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth....(Word of god) He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:28 and Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mathew 4:4 Yada yada...

Now Christ was born a person to be his father's Word. When he left, he said to believers that when there are more than one present (communion), he is present. So when all are present in worship god, they become christ's body. Because they become christ's body, they are automatically in union with god.

:leafwind: What exactly was christ's body if christ comes back?

I always find something new when I go to Mass once in a few millenia.

:leafwind: Are christians (all denominations) worshiping the flesh-the person? Many people place their face down praying to christ others kiss his feet.

:leafwind: If so, christ comes back, since the physical body came back, are christians supposed to worship the physical body of christ since the spiritual body/body of people doesn't need to make christ present when he would be here physically?

:leafwind: If christ comes back, is he still an intermediary to god (taking out judgement and all of that)?

It got me thinking because in Mass and a presbyterian church I went to a couple of times, they believe that christ is present when people come together. If christ is flesh (not a sacrificial meal but the person hands and feet), then christ cannot physically (hands to feet) be present in communion. But since he isn't present (hands to feet), he can be and that's how christians have union with god through the body of god's people coming together in his son's name.

:leafwind: But if christ comes later on in the future as many christians believe young and old, then who exactly was the "christ" people brought present when they worship him in their churches?

:leafwind: If christ comes back, will christians kiss his feet--are you actually worshiping the person, the human being? How does the body/flesh become the body/people to worship together in union with god and later for the body/flesh to come back for you to worship the body/flesh in order to be in union with god?

:leafwind: Are you supposed to worship god as one body which is christ (anointed body of people) or are you supposed to worship the actual human being (regardless the nature) if he comes physically head-toe as a human being? Will you guys kiss and wash his feet?

In Mass, it's not portrayed as worshiping the person/flesh (head-to-two) but to worship as a group called christ's body in a sacrificial meal. So, when I hear "christ comes again" it sounds redundant...

isn't he already here?

Observations from a Lapse Catholic

I'm hoping christians can answer this. All Christian denomination protestant and catholic (not just Roman).

No Christians to answer you question, only another Baha'i?

Isn't that ironic?:)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No Christians to answer you question, only another Baha'i?

Isn't that ironic?:)

Its weird. I guess they figure I will debate them or something. If someone asked the same question and sinsere in wanting to be christian theyd probably answer.

For sake of conversation and replying to my observation that was not negative, I have no reason why they dont answer.

Why would a bahai? Thats like me answering a Hindu question from a curious person all because I went to their temple.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
What has any of this to do with, "The nature of Christ"? You're asking where Christ is at any given time, not about His "nature".
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I actually do want christians to answer this with scripture.

1. Christ lived, died, and rose
2. He exists as the body of christ/body of believers

3. When a christian says christ will return, are they no longer the body of christ?

4. If christ returns, will you worship him and kiss his feet or worship his father?

If the body of christ is the people and christ is present when people gather, Who is coming down and if christ already exist as one body, Who will christians worship later-christ or god?
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I actually do want christians to answer this with scripture.

1. Christ lived, died, and rose
2. He exists as the body of christ/body of believers

3. When a christian says christ will return, are they no longer the body of christ?

4. If christ returns, will you worship him and kiss his feet or worship his father?

If the body of christ is the people and christ is present when people gather, Who is coming down and if christ already exist as one body, Who will christians worship later-christ or god?

You seem to be very, very confused. I would suggest scheduling at least a 2 hour appointment with the local priest so you can have a good sit down and get all of these questions answered.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You seem to be very, very confused. I would suggest scheduling at least a 2 hour appointment with the local priest so you can have a good sit down and get all of these questions answered.

Its not me. I dont follow christ anymore. Im not spiritually confused.

I never thought about christ coming back. I always was union with god through the people. Devotion to christ to be in union with god is to worship as a unit/a body to make christ present. When we die, we go to god. Thats how I learned it.

Ive never looked into judgement day, christ returning, etc. Thats wasnt my belief motivator. So, Im asking something new basex on what I observed in Mass and the scripture in my OP.

I have a catholic view. In your view, do you see the people as the body of christ....when christ returns, are you bowing to christ the human or to his father....and if christ is present here, who is coming down.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I came from Mass this morning (paying respects to my grandmas) and was thinkin'

The body of Christ is the people (1 Corinthians 12)

Christ, himself, is a person (John 1:14)

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth....(Word of god) He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:28 and Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mathew 4:4 Yada yada...

Now Christ was born a person to be his father's Word. When he left, he said to believers that when there are more than one present (communion), he is present. So when all are present in worship god, they become christ's body. Because they become christ's body, they are automatically in union with god.

:leafwind: What exactly was christ's body if christ comes back?
I think you're taking the "The Church is the Body of Christ" a little too literally. We are a body of believers, who have Christ as our head (AKA authority).

I always find something new when I go to Mass once in a few millenia.
What was the last time you went? Was it when the Minoans were around? :D

:leafwind: Are christians (all denominations) worshiping the flesh-the person? Many people place their face down praying to christ others kiss his feet.

:leafwind: If so, christ comes back, since the physical body came back, are christians supposed to worship the physical body of christ since the spiritual body/body of people doesn't need to make christ present when he would be here physically?
These are actually good questions. I would say that we worship the person of Christ, and not His literal physical body. Though it seems like some Catholics have an odd fascination with certain body parts of His (Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, anyone?)

:leafwind: If christ comes back, is he still an intermediary to god (taking out judgement and all of that)?
Did you mean "taking our judgement" here? Otherwise IDK what you're asking.

It got me thinking because in Mass and a presbyterian church I went to a couple of times, they believe that christ is present when people come together. If christ is flesh (not a sacrificial meal but the person hands and feet), then christ cannot physically (hands to feet) be present in communion. But since he isn't present (hands to feet), he can be and that's how christians have union with god through the body of god's people coming together in his son's name.
I think we also have to keep in mind that yes, Jesus is fully human and has a physical body and thus can (probably, IDK) only be in one place at a time in His physical body. But He is also fully God, and thus everywhere. And these two things are simultaneously true.

:leafwind: But if christ comes later on in the future as many christians believe young and old, then who exactly was the "christ" people brought present when they worship him in their churches?
The same Jesus.

:leafwind: If christ comes back, will christians kiss his feet--are you actually worshiping the person, the human being? How does the body/flesh become the body/people to worship together in union with god and later for the body/flesh to come back for you to worship the body/flesh in order to be in union with god?

:leafwind: Are you supposed to worship god as one body which is christ (anointed body of people) or are you supposed to worship the actual human being (regardless the nature) if he comes physically head-toe as a human being? Will you guys kiss and wash his feet?
I will give Him whatever show of respect He's cool with. But I have to admit, I'm not big on kissing anyone's feet. That isn't my thing.

In Mass, it's not portrayed as worshiping the person/flesh (head-to-two) but to worship as a group called christ's body in a sacrificial meal. So, when I hear "christ comes again" it sounds redundant...

isn't he already here?
He is with us, unto the end of the age (28:20), His Kingdom is within us (Luke 17:11), and yet we await His return in the flesh to judge the world.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hmm
I think you're taking the "The Church is the Body of Christ" a little too literally. We are a body of believers, who have Christ as our head (AKA authority).

I'd say we are Christ, the body, because when we take the Eucharist, that is what's holding us together, is christ. If we separated christ from the body-spirit so that he is a human even though he passed away, than what is the purpose of communion and the Eucharist, really?

What was the last time you went? Was it when the Minoans were around? :D

Other than last week, probably average three or four months at minimum. I pay my respects to my grandmother and christ because the sacraments. Nothing really in the latter but to say hello to an old friend type of thing.

These are actually good questions. I would say that we worship the person of Christ, and not His literal physical body. Though it seems like some Catholics have an odd fascination with certain body parts of His (Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, anyone?)

Actually, yeah. Seem like a lot of you worship his literal body especially when you say the bread and wine is christ's literal body and blood. I had to get a priest to break that down because that would odd everyone in the Church seeing the sacrificial meal as the physical jesus (like you and I) himself.

If you don't mean literal physical body and it's not the body of the people bringing Christ present in the Eucharist, what is the "person" of Christ?

Did you mean "taking our judgement" here? Otherwise IDK what you're asking.

Oops, yeah, our rather than out, judgement sorry. If Christ, the physical person, comes down and christ is supposed to be god and his intermediary, when he comes down will you guys worship him (kiss his feet etc) or worship his father?

I think we also have to keep in mind that yes, Jesus is fully human and has a physical body and thus can (probably, IDK) only be in one place at a time in His physical body. But He is also fully God, and thus everywhere. And these two things are simultaneously true.

That, I never got. I realized after awhile I wasn't a trinitarian (after other things I was realizing). I'd contend that the physical and spirit of christ resurrected, if I went off the bible. When people come in his name and are in service to him as one body, many limbs, then it makes christ-his spirit-literally present. Instead of being fully god, which makes christ can't be a intermediary to himself, he would be the spirit that holds everyone together so, like christ, the people his body can be in union with god. (Basically, union with god through the body of people)

The same Jesus.

So the spirit that holds the Church together would be the same spirit that comes back with flesh? Forgive me, but that sounds sorta creepy. Spirits exist in general, yeah, like my grandmother; but, a spirit coming back as a human, that's just off.

I will give Him whatever show of respect He's cool with. But I have to admit, I'm not big on kissing anyone's feet. That isn't my thing.

lol Hey, I remember my friend and I talking about when the Pope came to DC here in the US. One lady tried to jump on him to touch his garment. I mean, I understand the union of the body. I understand the purpose of god and the key to all of that being the Eucharist.

But worship like in "I can't live without you. Thank you. I worship you. I worship you oh Lord."

I'm not that type of worshiper. I think the father, if going by OT god, would smack me aside the head because I didn't worship him the right way.

He is with us, unto the end of the age (28:20), His Kingdom is within us (Luke 17:11), and yet we await His return in the flesh to judge the world.

Tell me, why do you need the flesh to return?

The Eucharist is already his flesh and blood.
Christ spirit (the spirit of the pentecost/holy spirit) binds god to the body of people
When you die, you be with god forever

As a believer, what more do you need?
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Hmm


I'd say we are Christ, the body, because when we take the Eucharist, that is what's holding us together, is christ.
Yes, exactly.
If we separated christ from the body-spirit so that he is a human even though he passed away, than what is the purpose of communion and the Eucharist, really?
A couple points here...
-I'm sure you know that in Catholicism and in Orthodoxy, we don't believe that Jesus "passed away" after His resurrection. He ascended into Heaven.
-Additionally, I think I touched on this in my last post, but we don't separate Christ's divinity from His humanity. This was expressly condemned at the Council of Ephesus. He is in Heaven in His human body, and he is also everywhere present, both in Heaven and on earth (Psalm 139:7-12). During the Proskomedia prayers prior to the Liturgy in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, the priest says: "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God; in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the inexpressible."

Actually, yeah. Seem like a lot of you worship his literal body especially when you say the bread and wine is christ's literal body and blood. I had to get a priest to break that down because that would odd everyone in the Church seeing the sacrificial meal as the physical jesus (like you and I) himself.
I have to admit, I never understood the point of Roman Catholicism's Eucharistic Adoration, or the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Just one of the many reasons I drifted away from the Roman Church towards the Byzantine tradition, even though I was confirmed as a Roman Catholic. And yet, we know from the earliest Church Fathers that they believed Jesus to be truly present in the Eucharist.

If you don't mean literal physical body and it's not the body of the people bringing Christ present in the Eucharist, what is the "person" of Christ?
He is the Second Person of the Trinity, the Theanthropos (God-Man). He isn't just His physical body, just His human soul, just His human nature, or even just His divine Nature. He is all of these things together, perfectly united.

Oops, yeah, our rather than out, judgement sorry. If Christ, the physical person, comes down and christ is supposed to be god and his intermediary, when he comes down will you guys worship him (kiss his feet etc) or worship his father?
As we say in the Divine Liturgy, "We [will] worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Trinity one in essence and undivided", in spirit and truth (John 14:24).

I'd contend that the physical and spirit of christ resurrected, if I went off the bible. When people come in his name and are in service to him as one body, many limbs, then it makes christ-his spirit-literally present.
This is true.

Instead of being fully god, which makes christ can't be a intermediary to himself,
Jesus is both God, and the intermediary between God and man, because He is the God-Man. He prays to the Father just as we do. His human will is perfectly united with His Divine will. We also have to avoid the trap of saying that God is one Person Who wears three masks (the Father, Jesus and the Spirit). Because the Trinity is three distinct Persons united in one and the same divine Essence, Jesus is an intermediary between humanity and the Trinity as a whole, not just between humanity and Himself.

he would be the spirit that holds everyone together so, like christ, the people his body can be in union with god. (Basically, union with god through the body of people)
This isn't too far off from the Orthodox vision of eternal communion with God, though I may or may not have an inconsequential quibble or two with word choice.

So the spirit that holds the Church together would be the same spirit that comes back with flesh?
Yes.

Forgive me, but that sounds sorta creepy. Spirits exist in general, yeah, like my grandmother; but, a spirit coming back as a human, that's just off.
Jesus never stopped being human, and He still has His body with Him in Heaven.

lol Hey, I remember my friend and I talking about when the Pope came to DC here in the US. One lady tried to jump on him to touch his garment. I mean, I understand the union of the body. I understand the purpose of god and the key to all of that being the Eucharist.

But worship like in "I can't live without you. Thank you. I worship you. I worship you oh Lord."

I'm not that type of worshiper. I think the father, if going by OT god, would smack me aside the head because I didn't worship him the right way.
I'm sure He'll smack us aside the head for plenty of reasons, even if we are among the blessed. :D

Tell me, why do you need the flesh to return?

The Eucharist is already his flesh and blood.
Christ spirit (the spirit of the pentecost/holy spirit) binds god to the body of people
When you die, you be with god forever

As a believer, what more do you need?
You're right, as believers we have everything we need to have full communion with Christ in His Church. However, we also look to the Last Day, when Christ returns in judgement. We say every Sunday in the Nicene Creed, "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom shall have no end." We're not just waiting for our own redemption, but the redemption and renewal of the whole cosmos. That is what will happen at the Second Coming, when Christ returns in glory. The New Jerusalem will be established upon the earth and Jesus will reign from the earth itself as Lord of All (Revelation 20-21).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have to admit, I never understood the point of Roman Catholicism's Eucharistic Adoration, or the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
In the gospels, Jesus said that the wine was his blood and the bread his body and that this should be done in remembrance of him, as you well know. "Blood" symbolized life itself, and the heart is what keeps it going. Have you ever used the phrase "you have to have heart", for example?

IOW, it's symbolic, and symbolisms are often taken very seriously, even though it may seem weird to those on the outside looking in. How many times have you seen some people question the eucharist and/or equate it with cannibalism, for example?

Anyhow, I'm not arguing with you but just pointing out a Catholic viewpoint.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
For once someone used short bible verses that actually went with the conversation!! :p Thanks

I'd say we are Christ, the body, because when we take the Eucharist, that is what's holding us together, is christ.

Yes, exactly.

Keeping this is mind, when I think of christ, I think of christ spirit. If christ returns as flesh, then christ would "need his spirit back" or did he have two spirits one in heaven and one on earth?

Unless christ is not really on earth, I can only see his spirit being "everywhere" but not his flesh. The flesh/blood is the body/blood of christ-the people.

So, if he wasn't in heaven in flesh, this would be easier to understand.

-I'm sure you know that in Catholicism and in Orthodoxy, we don't believe that Jesus "passed away" after His resurrection. He ascended into Heaven.

Passed away meaning his body-as human (unless he wasn't human)-turned to ashes and his spirit resurrected. He came back in his body to show his disciples he exists (I presume in a new body since christians are supposed to be resurrected like christ)

The whole relationship with christ is always "like" christ. It's not separate. So, I wouldn't see how christ is in heaven in flesh and spirit but then on earth as just spirit (in some churches) but as a sacramental meal rather than human being (like you and I) in Catholic churches.

Taking out transubstantiation for a moment. I don't know if your Church believes that.

-Additionally, I think I touched on this in my last post, but we don't separate Christ's divinity from His humanity. This was expressly condemned at the Council of Ephesus. He is in Heaven in His human body, and he is also everywhere present, both in Heaven and on earth (Psalm 139:7-12). During the Proskomedia prayers prior to the Liturgy in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, the priest says: "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God; in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the inexpressible."

Nice quotes. I can only see that because we have the Eucharist. Take the Eucharist out, the only body I see inseparable with christ spirit is the flesh and body of the people (body of christ). If there is no transubstantiation, then that's how I'd see it. Christ is present in flesh by the flesh of the people.

I have to admit, I never understood the point of Roman Catholicism's Eucharistic Adoration, or the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Just one of the many reasons I drifted away from the Roman Church towards the Byzantine tradition, even though I was confirmed as a Roman Catholic. And yet, we know from the earliest Church Fathers that they believed Jesus to be truly present in the Eucharist.

I can probably see why you drifted. I came in later in life, so a lot of what they teach, I can relate it better to non supernatural things. For example, the spirit of christ is the spirit of the people who come in his name and make him present. Transubstatiation is just blessing the wine and bread to make it a sacrificial meal. Only jesus sacrifice can save a christian, so by god blessing the sacrificial meal which RC term as Christ rather than bread/wine, that meal (christ sacrifice) brings people together in his name. When people eat of his body and drink of his blood, they die in christ and at the end of Mass, resurrected. That's how I see transubstiation. Priests are part of the body. But I can see why you'd drift away. It's unique, I can tell you that.

Eucharist Adoration. That, I have not wrapped my brain around yet. In Mass, it's easier because everything is in motion. When you come alone to adore the Eucharist, there is no body. So, it doesn't make christ literally present just present in the spirit of the person's mind. At least that's as far logic I can see in that.

He is the Second Person of the Trinity, the Theanthropos (God-Man). He isn't just His physical body, just His human soul, just His human nature, or even just His divine Nature. He is all of these things together, perfectly united.

Kinda making it complicated, are ya?

God (creator/being). Son (savior/human). Holy spirit (Life/Breathe of god).
All are divine; divinity doesn't make one god. Like Mary is divine and so are the saints. Just they aren't saviors, that's the difference.

God sent a human savior. Human savior physically dies and spiritually resurrected with new body. When he rises in spirit, the spirit of him goes to apostles in the holocaust. Holy is just an adjective. Spirit the working force of god. I still haven't defined creator/being. I'm an atheist. I have no clue what god is just who he represents in christianity only.

As we say in the Divine Liturgy, "We [will] worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Trinity one in essence and undivided", in spirit and truth (John 14:24).

In RC it's the apostles creed. I don't see the difference in the two. Beautiful though.

Jesus is both God, and the intermediary between God and man, because He is the God-Man. He prays to the Father just as we do. His human will is perfectly united with His Divine will. We also have to avoid the trap of saying that God is one Person Who wears three masks (the Father, Jesus and the Spirit). Because the Trinity is three distinct Persons united in one and the same divine Essence, Jesus is an intermediary between humanity and the Trinity as a whole, not just between humanity and Himself.

This is a tongue twister.

Creator and Son are (two people) together, one a creator and the other a human being, a savior. (Savior has to be human. God can't be in the presence of humans. The only way "he" can is to be a human. Not god-man.) Since the bible says "image of" we know that the creator didn't turn into a human but made a human in the image of or likeness of his character. He is still all human. Not god-man. (Sounds sci-fi to tell you honestly)

This isn't too far off from the Orthodox vision of eternal communion with God, though I may or may not have an inconsequential quibble or two with word choice.

Haha. No christian has yet to like my word choice. I was thinking if I went back into the Church, I'd go to an Orthodox one. We have one Greek Orthodox Church near here. Everything is protestant or Roman. I'm all LGBTQ so I won't be going back to the Church anytime soon. I'm not created to be chaste. I went to an Episcopalian church but it didn't feel complete.

Jesus never stopped being human, and He still has His body with Him in Heaven.

How can you be human/flesh in heaven but then flesh on earth at the same time? Does your Church believe the Eucharist is the actual blood and body of christ (probably where our hang up is)?

You're right, as believers we have everything we need to have full communion with Christ in His Church. However, we also look to the Last Day, when Christ returns in judgement. We say every Sunday in the Nicene Creed, "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom shall have no end." We're not just waiting for our own redemption, but the redemption and renewal of the whole cosmos. That is what will happen at the Second Coming, when Christ returns in glory. The New Jerusalem will be established upon the earth and Jesus will reign from the earth itself as Lord of All (Revelation 20-21).

That makes sense. I'd say that every confession we are judged, blessed, and forgiven. So, I wouldn't see the need to judge anyone who has already a relationship with the Church.

The last part, I never heard it redemption for all people of the cosmos. Why be judged if all would be redeemed?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In the gospels, Jesus said that the wine was his blood and the bread his body and that this should be done in remembrance of him, as you well know. "Blood" symbolized life itself, and the heart is what keeps it going. Have you ever used the phrase "you have to have heart", for example?

IOW, it's symbolic, and symbolisms are often taken very seriously, even though it may seem weird to those on the outside looking in. How many times have you seen some people question the eucharist and/or equate it with cannibalism, for example?

Anyhow, I'm not arguing with you but just pointing out a Catholic viewpoint.

Symbolism :facepalm::p
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
In the gospels, Jesus said that the wine was his blood and the bread his body and that this should be done in remembrance of him, as you well know. "Blood" symbolized life itself, and the heart is what keeps it going. Have you ever used the phrase "you have to have heart", for example?

IOW, it's symbolic, and symbolisms are often taken very seriously, even though it may seem weird to those on the outside looking in. How many times have you seen some people question the eucharist and/or equate it with cannibalism, for example?

Anyhow, I'm not arguing with you but just pointing out a Catholic viewpoint.
This is true, and in reality I'm probably just being obtuse about the Sacred Heart devotion.
 
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