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Featured The Limits of Religious Freedom

Discussion in 'Religious News' started by Phaedrus, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. Phaedrus

    Phaedrus Active Member

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    An insightful article that really speaks to me.

    The limits of religious freedom: America must come to grips with when faith groups limit personal liberty
     
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  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    I 100% completely agree with the article. We know, for a fact, such thins can be harmful and damaging to a child and have plenty of research and evidence to reasonably predict there will hand handfuls who turn out to be damaged adults (if they survive childhood). But, time and time again, we use "freedom of religion" as a permission card for the worst believes our society has to offer to wreck their havoc and destruction upon the innocent, ill-informed, and non-consenting, and let them legally get away with behaviors and actions that would be considered criminal if "religion" wasn't involved.
     
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  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In coming time the 'powers that be' will turn on the religious world.
    Since Christendom (so-called Christian) claims to follow the God of the Bible then her destruction will be first.
    Just like un-faithful Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies in the year 70.
    So, once again I find God will use the political/military world against corrupted religion.
    Troublesome religion has placed herself on the United Nations radar.
    The U.N. sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
    With backing the U.N. can prove to be God's modern-day arm of the law against such trouble-filled religions.
     
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  4. Snickerdoodle

    Snickerdoodle New Member

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    "Religious freedom" is the freedom to excersice your religion, not the freedom to use your religion to harm others.
     
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  5. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Given the wide range of religious beliefs, there have to be limits. One of the threads of the Civil War was about the Bible and slavery.

    And we don't want women to be repressed by rigid Salafi Muslim beliefs either.
     
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  6. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    According to WHOM are these things harmful?

    The Amish and the Hassidic Jews don't believe that their practices are harmful, and let's face it; those cultures have been around, and in spite of the woman who wrote the article linked to in the OP, have produced societies that have worked for quite some time. In the case of the Jews, a VERY long time.

    So...YOU (very general "you") don't believe as they do, so YOUR beliefs must supersede theirs? YOURS are the beliefs that must be followed, YOUR ideas of what's good for kids must be obeyed over what their parent's beliefs are, BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS THEY DO?

    The ironic thing here is that those who are forcing their beliefs upon these minority groups are the ones criticizing religions for forcing their belief on others. What the heck do you think you're doing?

    Precisely the same thing. Because YOU want to do things YOUR way, and because you think your way is the 'one true way,' you are quite willing to force others into your method of doing things.

    .....and don't come after me. Unfortunately for those who want to educate other people's kids to YOUR standards, my own belief system is 100% for education, the more the better. You can have no criticisms against us for that.

    That does not, however, mean that either you or I have the right to tell the Amish, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Hassidic Jews or anybody else how to raise their kids. Or rather, we don't have the right to force, by law, our views upon them.
     
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  7. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    No one is ever the villain in their own story.
    Societies that flourished also had some things which we would consider, at the very least, distasteful.
    There’s a tribe, I can’t remember the name, but they live entirely untouched by modern civilisation. They do just fine, flourish even, in their own way. But we warn people, especially proselytisers, not to go near them because they’re known to practice cannibalism. (Not to suggest the Amish are comparable to cannibals obviously. I’m sure their diets are more than adequately civilised. But you know, flourishing society doesn’t necessarily mean saintly.)

    Now don’t get me wrong, people can have whatever religion they want. But there is another side to all this. There are people legitimately hurt by say the shunning practices employed by Jehova’s Witnesses or the Amish. There are even support groups dedicated to helping people overcome their religious upbringings. Usually among the more “extreme variety.” There are accounts of adult members who grew up Mormon or what have you who were so sheltered they literally had to learn how to function in society. Or even had to learn basic knowledge because they were discouraged from active participation in education.
    The early marriage practices in some Dharmic chapters are abhorrent to me because they are physically and mentally harmful to the young brides. Even if they’re 16. But as long as there’s parental consent hey it’s all just religious freedom.
    And the caste system can die in a hole, as far as I’m concerned.

    I’m all for religious freedoms, but not everything is rainbows and lollipops.
    There are people who have had to literally seek out psychological help due to some more extreme methods some have employed under the guise of religious freedoms.
     
    #7 SomeRandom, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  8. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I don't think anyone -- religious or not -- has a moral right to intentionally and willfully misinform children about any matter of importance. As for a legal right, that opens up a whole can of worms about the practicality of enforcing "truth laws". I don't know much about that.
     
    #8 Sunstone, Oct 22, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Breaking up destructive subcultures that are very highly insular. Surely, if their beliefs are valued, they can withstand a little "Western education." We allow children to be killed and grow up into damaged adults because of our tolerance of freedom of religion, and great leniency it is granted. This needs to come to an end.
     
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  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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  11. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    Stuff as described in the article is what a majority of atheists in the end are motivated by. I think. And think the article tells it very well. Its the amount of nonsense that comes from religions and that harm others as a result, whether that is physical or mentally.

    That people will accept being told stuff without evidence and being treated in certain ways because of what some of these religions teaches people.

    So to me, the article pretty much just describe what most atheists have complained or been concerned about for a very long time.
     
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  12. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    But ain't that what its already like now. Poor people receive poor education with offers them little future.

    One should go the other way and make private schools illegal, giving all equal chance for a good education. If the rich don't like the educational system, they would be forced to invest into it for the good of the public as well. It would probably also make it easier to demand improvements to the educational system if all suffers from it being bad.

    The issue is that you allow a certain group of people to not care about the rest, which encourage an unequal society, which is probably the worse way to go in my opinion, when we are talking about securing a future for all humans.
     
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  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    How about Lev Tahor?
     
  14. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    That's not true. We do have the ability, as a society, to put the protection of some rights over others. Of course we do.
    It's a strange notion to suggest we don't.

    Take the heat out of it for a second. I assume you would consider Satanic culling murder, right? The rights of people overlap. As a society we need to determine how to handle this.

    Where do you stand on abortion?
     
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  15. questfortruth

    questfortruth Active Member

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  16. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    The thing with religious practices is that each group thinks it's doing what its god requires. They therefore will defend the practices as such.
    During the civil war, each side was convinced that they were right according to the Bible. And they used the Bible to defend killing each other. Each side thought God was with them and they would therefore prevail.
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I think the cure is worse that the problem. Education was never meant to be a Federally controlled sector. Anytime you give more authority to the government you lessen your freedom.

    Incidentally, I am sure that the Pastor Jeffress went to a school anyway. It doesn't stop people from making outlandish claims.
     
  18. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Of course. Distasteful to you.

    Yep, and good luck and blessings to those folks and the folks they aid...who have chosen themselves to leave that belief system or have freely chosen to do something against the tenets of that system so that they are expelled. Aid and help given to those disaffected folks is NOT what is being discussed here, is it?

    Yes. That particular group of Mormons (the polygamous group under Warren Jeffs) was a nasty one.

    I would submit, however, that part of the reason they were so insular is because the outside world had decided that polygamy was illegal and jail worthy, and persecuted them for that. It is THAT which allowed Jeffs to be so powerful, precisely the way other 'mind control cults' had leaders which were powerful and, well, nasty.

    BTW, those folks are "Mormons" the way Westboro Baptists represent all Baptists.

    "Mormons" in general don't have that issue....which is probably why the LDS leadership wants everybody to use the name of the church; "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints" rather than "Mormon," so that folks like you will learn the difference between Jeffs' group (10,000) and us (16,000,000)

    As far as you are concerned.

    Nope.

    And 'freedom of religion' means that one must address those issues through teaching and proselytization, NOT external legal persecution through laws.

    YOU may not like some religious practice.....but they probably don't like yours, either. I, personally, don't want to see a government in which the majority belief system can regulate the religious opinions and acts of minorities.

    After all, you ARE talking to a 'Latter-day saint" here...one of those who are members of the larger 'Mormon" classification. We KNOW what it means to have the government pass laws. We ended up being driven right out of the USA altogether, at gun point.

    Because the folks around us didn't like our religious beliefs.


    [QUOTE="SomeRandom, post: 6368999, member: 53071"} There are people who have had to literally seek out psychological help due to some more extreme methods some have employed under the guise of religious freedoms.[/QUOTE]

    ....and if those psychiatrists had been around back in the mid nineteenth century, every Mormon existing would have been treated for PTSD because of what the proper, right thinking people around them DID to them.

    All aid and service should be given to those who are unhappy with their belief system, or who leave it.

    The ones who are just fine with it? Leave 'em alone.
     
    #18 dianaiad, Oct 23, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  19. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Of course. One can always justify one's OWN willingness to abrogate the freedoms of others. Just say that their beliefs are harmful to others (i.e., themselves because they don't agree with you) and there you go.
     
  20. Phaedrus

    Phaedrus Active Member

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    The willful ignorance of some people to not recognize the harm done to others due to one's religious beliefs is probably the highlight of cognitive dissonance.
     
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