The Limits of Religious Freedom

[BilliardsBall]

I 100% completely agree with the article. We know, for a fact, such thins can be harmful and damaging to a child and have plenty of research and evidence to reasonably predict there will hand handfuls who turn out to be damaged adults (if they survive childhood). But, time and time again, we use "freedom of religion" as a permission card for the worst believes our society has to offer to wreck their havoc and destruction upon the innocent, ill-informed, and non-consenting, and let them legally get away with behaviors and actions that would be considered criminal if "religion" wasn't involved.

If religious freedom is trimmed in the USA, doesn't that edit about a dozen Constitutional Amendments? How do we have freedom of speech if I cannot proselytize, for example?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

According to WHOM are these things harmful?

The Amish and the Hassidic Jews don't believe that their practices are harmful, and let's face it; those cultures have been around, and in spite of the woman who wrote the article linked to in the OP, have produced societies that have worked for quite some time. In the case of the Jews, a VERY long time.

So...YOU (very general "you") don't believe as they do, so YOUR beliefs must supersede theirs? YOURS are the beliefs that must be followed, YOUR ideas of what's good for kids must be obeyed over what their parent's beliefs are, BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS THEY DO?

The ironic thing here is that those who are forcing their beliefs upon these minority groups are the ones criticizing religions for forcing their belief on others. What the heck do you think you're doing?

Precisely the same thing. Because YOU want to do things YOUR way, and because you think your way is the 'one true way,' you are quite willing to force others into your method of doing things.

.....and don't come after me. Unfortunately for those who want to educate other people's kids to YOUR standards, my own belief system is 100% for education, the more the better. You can have no criticisms against us for that.

That does not, however, mean that either you or I have the right to tell the Amish, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Hassidic Jews or anybody else how to raise their kids. Or rather, we don't have the right to force, by law, our views upon them.

My vote is that we ask THE KIDS THEMSELVES. The woman who wrote the article obviously felt wronged by her religious leaders/parents/etc. Is she not qualified to pronounce her own distaste for the practices? There's NO ONE BETTER, I'd say.

How about those girls who were pinned down having their clitorises removed? You think they might not have a few complaints to air?

Point being that there are plenty of stories of people getting out from under their religion's oppressive hand and going on to work toward exposing the things they found deplorable in the religion's practices. Those people aren't going to drop their charge suddenly because someone like you questions their authority to do so, are they? And as long as there are people coming out of these situations claiming damage, there will be sympathetic ears on the outside ready to try and talk some more sense and raise more awareness of everyone around them.

I honestly think religion's days are numbered - and not because someone is going to "drop the hammer" and restrict people's rights to practice, but because people are going to get wise to the idea that other people's chastisements of some of their beliefs and practices are often entirely warranted, and that some of the things they believe or do are just backward and unhelpful, if not hurtful. It will continue to happen as it needs to happen - naturally and organically.

 

[questfortruth]

If religious freedom is trimmed in the USA, doesn't that edit about a dozen Constitutional Amendments? How do we have freedom of speech if I cannot proselytize, for example?

The freedom is defined as Free Will actions within the laws of God. So, if God does not want you to pray in a toilet, then do not pray outloud in there.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The freedom is defined as Free Will actions within the laws of God. So, if God does not want you to pray in a toilet, then do not pray outloud in there.

Would not God hear you even you thought the prayer (in the toilet)?

 

[Kenny]

Well it isn’t.
I have no need to ‘support a position’ about any idea that enters someone else’s head.

Has nothing to do with someone else's head.

Atheism requires no proof.
It is the absence of a specific belief.
It does not assert anything to which ‘proof’ would apply.

It is what is in your head that needs support (If you are actively declaring your position)

 

[questfortruth]

Atheism requires no proof.
It is the absence of a specific belief.
It does not assert anything to which ‘proof’ would apply.

Historically the theism was first. Then came atheism WITHOUT OWN JUSTIFICATION.

 

[Kenny]

Would not God hear you even you thought the prayer (in the toilet)?

Depends on which God you are espousing.

 

[Kenny]

My vote is that we ask THE KIDS THEMSELVES.

yes... I was thinking about asking THE KIDS whether they want to go to school today and if they prefer ice-cream for breakfast instead of oatmeal.

How about those girls who were pinned down having their clitorises removed? You think they might not have a few complaints to air?

What one deranged practice does, does not eliminate all religious beliefs. "If one then all" is like saying "If one doctor milks medicare then all milk medicare". Hardly a position to hold

I honestly think religion's days are numbered -

Never! Religiosity, yes, faith... a categorical "NO".

 

[Spirit of Light]

Depends on which God you are espousing.

Yes this is true @questfortruth seem to be talking about the Christian God, The Question was asked with that as a base.

 

[Howard Is]

Has nothing to do with someone else's head.


It is what is in your head that needs support (If you are actively declaring your position)

You just don’t get it.
I have no reason whatsoever to believe in your God, nor any need to support that absence of belief.

You think that your belief is so important that I need to justify not agreeing with you ?
That is megalomania.

 

[Howard Is]

Historically the theism was first. Then came atheism WITHOUT OWN JUSTIFICATION.

Here is why that is nonsense.
If, historically, theism came first, then obviously atheism preceded it !

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

yes... I was thinking about asking THE KIDS whether they want to go to school today and if they prefer ice-cream for breakfast instead of oatmeal.

Okay... you do that. And then let's honestly ask them in 20 years if they feel their religious upbringing helped them or hindered them. If they answer helped, or that it was neutral, then "well done" is all I have to say to you. This is NOT, however, the experience everyone has. And one of the points here is that we have things like child services to try and save kids from abusive, or overly neglectful parents, but religious weirdness tends to get a free pass.

What one deranged practice does, does not eliminate all religious beliefs. "If one then all" is like saying "If one doctor milks medicare then all milk medicare". Hardly a position to hold

You're right, it doesn't. But as a people, we all need to be less scared of calling out the religion's we think DO have hurtful practices, or to raise an issue when we see them. Just as the authorities would immediately do if they saw a doctor taking advantage of medicare.

Never! Religiosity, yes, faith... a categorical "NO".

Only time will tell. I know I'll keep watching.

 

[LuisDantas]

Excellent OP, @Phaedrus

There is _far too much_ mistaking freedom of belief and of speech with a mandate to demand protection from reasoned arguments, challenges and criticism.

Any society owes itself to learn better than to submit to such decadence.

 

[Nimos]

Private schools are not just for the 'rich.'

the poor can attend charter schools, if the government would get its politically correct head out of its politically correct textbooks and fund them. It would actually be cheaper.

Homeschooling is also an option. a LOT of 'po folks' homeschool. I did.

............and I have a full accreditation in teaching, plus degrees. So why did I homeschool? Because I know what the public education system is like. A good "homeschooler" can give his/her kids an education that public school can't touch.

But this is more than just education, its about people as well. Its about making equal opportunities for everyone. If you accept that public schools or dropout factories as I think they are also referred to, is acceptable and have to try to find other ways, like homeschooling etc. Then that to me is clear evidence that the educational system is in need of help.

To me it ought to be a demand from the people of that country, that everyone have access to good education. And not a system, that tells you to come up with your own alternative solution, just because you weren't lucky that your parents were rich. No one ought to accept or defend such system in my opinion. The country it self should see the value in a highly educated population and not just an elite. Being brilliant or gifted is not linked to money, so potentially a country risk loosing a lot of these people purely because they are not given the opportunity or their life situation forces them to not reach their full potential.

Furthermore you divide the society, If I recall correctly the saying is "The land of opportunity" and not "The land of opportunity...(for those who can afford it)" Which seems to be the case. So dividing people into clear classes for when they are very young, I doubt is healthy for the country as a whole, as these two group clearly doesn't face equal problems. Why would a rich person care for a good healthcare system for all people? Or even for a good public educational system as long as their own children doesn't suffer for it. The only reason why they ought to care is if you are talking about the grand scale effect on the country as a whole. But I don't really think a lot of people care about that to the extend that is needed. You have to remember that these kids grow up in completely different environments, which at least to me, further expand the gap between these groups, as if they live in different countries.

If everyone faces the same issues, obviously those with lots of money would complain just as much as those without, adding more public pressure on the politicians for changes.

 

[Kenny]

Yes this is true @questfortruth seem to be talking about the Christian God, The Question was asked with that as a base.

Then there is no need to stick your head in a toilet.

 

[Kenny]

You just don’t get it.
I have no reason whatsoever to believe in your God, nor any need to support that absence of belief.

You think that your belief is so important that I need to justify not agreeing with you ?
That is megalomania.

You don't have to believe in my God.

If you espouse that there is no god... then you would have to prove it.

I am not asking for you to agree with me... no need to create a thread of thought that I haven't suggested or asked for.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Then there is no need to stick your head in a toilet.

What?

 

[Kenny]

Okay... you do that. And then let's honestly ask them in 20 years if they feel their religious upbringing helped them or hindered them. If they answer helped, or that it was neutral, then "well done" is all I have to say to you. This is NOT, however, the experience everyone has.

Great! My children are now 40, 38 & 36. They are continuing the legacy of knowing a personal, loving and caring God to the 11 children that they have between them.

And one of the points here is that we have things like child services to try and save kids from abusive, or overly neglectful parents, but religious weirdness tends to get a free pass.

It doesn't take "religious" to have kids in abusive and neglectful parents. And I don't see where "weirdness" gets a free pass. (Not to mention that if one is an atheist--everything that a faith-filled person does will be weird for them)

You're right, it doesn't. But as a people, we all need to be less scared of calling out the religion's we think DO have hurtful practices, or to raise an issue when we see them. Just as the authorities would immediately do if they saw a doctor taking advantage of medicare.

Agreed.

Only time will tell. I know I'll keep watching.

We'll watch together! (Unless I take a trip beyond this temporal natural world before you do)

 

[Kenny]

What?

I'm sorry, did I misunderstand?

Would not God hear you even you thought the prayer (in the toilet)?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm sorry, did I misunderstand?

@questfortruth said one should not pray out loud in the toilet, so the question becomes, does not God hear it even someone think the prayer. So it does not matter where one prays.