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The Limits of Religious Freedom

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
I think the cure is worse that the problem. Education was never meant to be a Federally controlled sector. Anytime you give more authority to the government you lessen your freedom.

Incidentally, I am sure that the Pastor Jeffress went to a school anyway. It doesn't stop people from making outlandish claims.
Some children will decide to follow the practices of their religious upbringing and others will not. The ones who do not will tend to blame the religion they were raised in as being a negative thing. The ones who stay will tend to speak of it as a positive thing.
As far as education goes, there are differing ideas as to what is most important to learn.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Some children will decide to follow the practices of their religious upbringing and others will not. The ones who do not will tend to blame the religion they were raised in as being a negative thing. The ones who stay will tend to speak of it as a positive thing.
As far as education goes, there are differing ideas as to what is most important to learn.
I see much truth in what you just wrote here.
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
Because those who have a bad experience cannot possibly be correct in what they experienced? Speaking of blaming the victim.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
That's not true. We do have the ability, as a society, to put the protection of some rights over others. Of course we do.
It's a strange notion to suggest we don't.

Take the heat out of it for a second. I assume you would consider Satanic culling murder, right? The rights of people overlap. As a society we need to determine how to handle this.

Where do you stand on abortion?

What we have, as a society, to do is to limit what religions do to unwilling OTHERS. That is, if the ONC wants to do 'satanic culling,' aiming at those they don't like and don't agree with (and yes, I've read 'the Culling Texts) then the greater society has the right to say no; those Satanists don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs (through killing people) on those who don't agree with them.

BTW...you DO realize that most Satanists are actually atheists who identify with Satan as a rebel, but who have perfectly ethical beliefs, don't you?

ANYway...I have a problem....a very big problem...with those who extend the notion of 'harm' to parents who raise their children in a way that conflicts with the beliefs of the critics, or who want to send the cops after people whose beliefs are 'distasteful".

My own view is this: religions which impose their way of life upon those who do not agree or who are not willing need to be prevented from doing so. That is, human sacrifice is out (Satanic culling the way you use it). Other than that, hands off. If a member of a belief system leaves, that's an entirely different matter.

Help should be offered to those who reach out for it. It should never be forced upon those who don't want it.

..........and my view on abortion is totally off topic. Unless you can show me how my view on abortion matters?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Because those who have a bad experience cannot possibly be correct in what they experienced? Speaking of blaming the victim.

I could have had a bad experience with one dentist... it doesn't translate that dentistry is bad.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I don't think anyone -- religious or not -- has a moral right to intentionally and willfully misinform children about any matter of importance. As for a legal right, that opens up a whole can of worms about the practicality of enforcing "truth laws". I don't much about that.


Would this include such things as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, climate change......
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
I could have had a bad experience with one dentist... it doesn't translate that dentistry is bad.

I suppose it depends on the bad experience. Are we talking being raped while under the influence of a mind-altering drug, which would be more equivalent to suffering from religious abuse, or just that the dentist did a poor aesthetic job?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone -- religious or not -- has a moral right to intentionally and willfully misinform children about any matter of importance. As for a legal right, that opens up a whole can of worms about the practicality of enforcing "truth laws". I don't much about that.

Ah, Sunstone....and you have put your finger on it.

no 'moral' right? OK. your beliefs differ from theirs. You don't think they should be teaching their kids incorrect things...but you have a problem with external laws forcing them to teach their kids what YOU believe.

I'm with you 100%

...............and that's why I was a missionary. Proselytization; arguing with them. Teaching them and attempting to get them to change their minds and their beliefs. That's how one handles this sort of thing.

Not knocking heads and jail time....just a lot of knocking on doors and information.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
According to WHOM are these things harmful?

The Amish and the Hassidic Jews don't believe that their practices are harmful, and let's face it; those cultures have been around, and in spite of the woman who wrote the article linked to in the OP, have produced societies that have worked for quite some time. In the case of the Jews, a VERY long time.

So...YOU (very general "you") don't believe as they do, so YOUR beliefs must supersede theirs? YOURS are the beliefs that must be followed, YOUR ideas of what's good for kids must be obeyed over what their parent's beliefs are, BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS THEY DO?

The ironic thing here is that those who are forcing their beliefs upon these minority groups are the ones criticizing religions for forcing their belief on others. What the heck do you think you're doing?

Precisely the same thing. Because YOU want to do things YOUR way, and because you think your way is the 'one true way,' you are quite willing to force others into your method of doing things.

.....and don't come after me. Unfortunately for those who want to educate other people's kids to YOUR standards, my own belief system is 100% for education, the more the better. You can have no criticisms against us for that.

That does not, however, mean that either you or I have the right to tell the Amish, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Hassidic Jews or anybody else how to raise their kids. Or rather, we don't have the right to force, by law, our views upon them.

Unfortunately, this subjectivist perspective isnt true or practical. While it isnt necessary for government to dictate all things, there are limits. Any religious community who enjoys the protections of a government must negotiate with that government and inevitably make compromises.

Human sacrifice, slavery, physical and sexual abuse, but not emotional abuse at this point are fair game for a government to find cause to intervene into a minority group within their jurisdiction. It can even be seen as right and humane for one nation to intervene into the abuses internal to another nation.

What gives anyone the right to do this? Moral feeling, compassion, wisdom born from the experience of history. Let it not be said that good people stood by and did nothing while evil is allowed to grow and consume our neighbors.

This sort of interference is a self-granted right and responsibility. It is also something that we do not want to use to excess. In a multicultural society we can rest assured that diversity will help ensure balance in this area.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
But ain't that what its already like now. Poor people receive poor education with offers them little future.

One should go the other way and make private schools illegal, giving all equal chance for a good education. If the rich don't like the educational system, they would be forced to invest into it for the good of the public as well. It would probably also make it easier to demand improvements to the educational system if all suffers from it being bad.

The issue is that you allow a certain group of people to not care about the rest, which encourage an unequal society, which is probably the worse way to go in my opinion, when we are talking about securing a future for all humans.

Private schools are not just for the 'rich.'

the poor can attend charter schools, if the government would get its politically correct head out of its politically correct textbooks and fund them. It would actually be cheaper.

Homeschooling is also an option. a LOT of 'po folks' homeschool. I did.

............and I have a full accreditation in teaching, plus degrees. So why did I homeschool? Because I know what the public education system is like. A good "homeschooler" can give his/her kids an education that public school can't touch.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I suppose it depends on the bad experience. Are we talking being raped while under the influence of a mind-altering drug, which would be more equivalent to suffering from religious abuse, or just that the dentist did a poor aesthetic job?

I suppose you can make your own reality.

"Are we talking being raped while under the influence of a mind-altering drug, which would be more equivalent to suffering from religious abuse" - somewhere over the rainbow, this could be true.

"just that the dentist did a poor aesthetic job?"

As I was seated at a dentist chair who had me prepared for a crown, I was reflecting on the fact that the week before this good doctor said to me, "Ken, I normally charge $800 for a crown but I'm going to do it for $400".

I was appreciative. As I laid there with all the instruments in my mouth (tooth had been duly reduced in size) I overhear this good doctor say to the person on the other side, "Joe (not his name), I normally charge $800 for a crown but I'm going to do it for $400".

After that sitting, I went to another dentist.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Private schools are not just for the 'rich.'

the poor can attend charter schools, if the government would get its politically correct head out of its politically correct textbooks and fund them. It would actually be cheaper.

Homeschooling is also an option. a LOT of 'po folks' homeschool. I did.

............and I have a full accreditation in teaching, plus degrees. So why did I homeschool? Because I know what the public education system is like. A good "homeschooler" can give his/her kids an education that public school can't touch.
Now THAT is the truth,.

All my grandchildren are homeschooled. By fourth grade they could name every major event in the history of the world!

I need to go back to elementary school.

Now they are learning Spanish having learned Latin and having studied logic. (For those who are in 10th grade now)

Classical Conversation is the program.
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
So we agree that bad experiences should not be undermined simply for the support of a bias in favor of that which has caused harm?
 

Snickerdoodle

New Member
So we agree that bad experiences should not be undermined simply for the support of a bias in favor of that which has caused harm?
Are you saying that harm for the sake of a greater good (such as experiencing pain to get your teeth fixed) is ok, but experiencing pain as a result of being taken advanaged of for the gain of the perpetrator?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ah, Sunstone....and you have put your finger on it.

no 'moral' right? OK. your beliefs differ from theirs. You don't think they should be teaching their kids incorrect things...but you have a problem with external laws forcing them to teach their kids what YOU believe.

I'm with you 100%

...............and that's why I was a missionary. Proselytization; arguing with them. Teaching them and attempting to get them to change their minds and their beliefs. That's how one handles this sort of thing.

Not knocking heads and jail time....just a lot of knocking on doors and information.
And a great definition of Proselytization.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Atheism requires no proof.
It is the absence of a specific belief.
It does not assert anything to which ‘proof’ would apply.
Disagree... that sounds more like a political correctness statement that absolves people from the need to support their position.
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
Disagree... that sounds more like a political correctness statement that absolves people from the need to support their position.

Well it isn’t.
I have no need to ‘support a position’ about any idea that enters someone else’s head.
 
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