The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[Terry Sampson]

What is the difference between Watchtower magazine script and what is Bible script as found at www.jw.org ___________________

You miss my point. Differences between individual JWs reflect the differences in their ability to read and remember the www.jw.org script, ergo: consulting www.jw.org is a heckuvalot more reliable way to get info about JW beliefs, ... and it doesn't talk back, like JWs in RF.

 

[Deeje]

What I find odd is that you believe that non JW's are a better source of JW's beliefs than JW's.

Makes a person wonder if you are honestly interested in what JW's believe.

Thank you Mestemia....its always better to get your truth from the horse's mouth, rather than from the other end... .

 

[McBell]

Thank you Mestemia....its always better to get your truth from the horse's mouth, rather than from the other end... .

To be completely honest with you, I have found you to be a most excellent source for JW beliefs in the same way I find Katzpur a most excellent source for Mormon beliefs.

I do not believe the same as either of you, but that does not alter the fact that the two of you are reliable sources for your respective beliefs.

 

[Deeje]

You miss my point. Differences between individual JWs reflect the differences in their ability to read and remember the www.jw.org script, ergo: consulting www.jw.org is a heckuvalot more reliable way to get info about JW beliefs, ... and it doesn't talk back, like JWs in RF.

Forgive me but that sounds a little strange from someone who describes themselves as a "Creedalist Xian".....what 'creeds' do you subscribe to, and do you remember the 'script' that you follow?

Jesus taught one truth.....if he did not teach it, then it isn't true.....simple. Doctrine is doctrine.

Either God is "one"....or he is "three" squeezed into one "head".
Either we have an immortal soul that flits off after death to 'live' somewhere else....or we don't.
Either we go to heaven or hell as opposite destinations....or we don't.
Either God punishes us for sins in a burning fire forever....or he doesn't.

Should I go on?

 

[Eyes to See]

@Eyes to See I’m not sure if you answered @firedragon ’s question.
You wrote extensively about an apostasy but didn’t seem to catch some of the subtlety of the question.

For example you said you don’t believe Jesus is God or a trinity, but if you wrote about the pre-existence of Jesus I must have missed it.

Also not sure that you addressed if Jesus is a begotten son and what you mean by that

That is possible. I don't think the OP was wanting an explanation from scripture why Jesus isn't God. I could be wrong though. OP can correct me here. He wanted to know what was missing between other so-called Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses.

My brief history helps to explain why Christendom has God dishonoring doctrines that are not found in the Bible, and how the Bible and Jesus himself foretold such things were going to occur. And that during the last days he was going to separate true Christians from the false ones. You are a witness Daniel, of these prophecies. It is not by man's hand that a people for God's name exist in our day and have returned to the original teachings of the Bible. The teachings of truth. It is a modern-day miracle that is only made possible by God's holy spirit operative upon his people.

These things that are happening today have been foretold by men of God thousands of years ago and they are being fulfilled.

Jehovah said he would have witnesses of himself to preach the good news of the kingdom in all the earth to all tribes and peoples and tongues before the end comes. Jehovah has both provided his witnesses and imbued them with the spirit to tell about his name.

Christendom's Churches, for the most part, hide God's name. They replace it in their Bibles with titles such as LORD and GOD. Wherever you see the titles in all caps LORD and GOD they are purposefully removing the author's name (Jehovah) from the Bible and replacing it. This is done to obfuscate who Jehovah is. When you realize that Jehovah is God you can easily understand that Jesus is a different person, his son.

Jesus is the son of God. He is the only-begotten. Something that is begotten had a creation, a beginning, he was begat by his father.

Jesus' prehuman existence stretches back to the beginning of everything. As he is the first creation of God, and the only direct creation of Jehovah he is rightly called "only-begotten." For through Jesus Christ all other things were created both visible and invisible, both in heaven and on earth. In this sense he is the only-begotten of God.

That is what this scripture is saying:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;  because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.-Colossians 1:15-16.

 

[Terry Sampson]

what 'creeds' do you subscribe to, and do you remember the 'script' that you follow

How odd that you would ask.
Not that I actually believe you're really interested in an answer, I subscribe to the Apostle's Creed, and yes, I remember it.

Should I go on?

No need to. I'm computer-literate and can read. If I have any questions, I'll look them up at www.jw.org. If and when I come up with a question, I won't be asking it here in RF. You'll have to find someone else "to put in your preaching time" with.

 

[PruePhillip]

Why should anyone explain their beliefs to you?

Maybe because they are kind and want to help.

 

[Eyes to See]

@Eyes to See I’m not sure if you answered @firedragon ’s question.
You wrote extensively about an apostasy but didn’t seem to catch some of the subtlety of the question.

For example you said you don’t believe Jesus is God or a trinity, but if you wrote about the pre-existence of Jesus I must have missed it.

Also not sure that you addressed if Jesus is a begotten son and what you mean by that

I will add this. I don't think you would argue that Jesus is God or a part of a Trinity. You seem to be more level-headed than that. I see you are an intelligent person and a thinking one.

When I do come across people who believe in the Trinity who are sincere and want a good explanation as to why we don't believe Jesus is God I use 3 things.

I ask:

1. Can God die?
2. Can God be tempted?
3. Can God learn obedience?

The answer to all three is obvious. No.

1. Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
-Habakkuk 1:12.

The entire Christian faith is based upon the fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins:
"...through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us."
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10.

If Jesus was God he could not have died as God cannot die. He is immortal. What is more Jehovah cannot take the form of a human. No man can look upon God's face and live he is far too powerful for us:

No man has seen God at any time.
-John 1:18.

Jehovah talking to Moses:

“You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”
Exodus 33:20.



2.  When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.
-James 1:13.

Jehovah God is beyond corruption.

Jesus, on the other hand, like Satan had the opportunity to rebel against God. In fact Jesus was tempted by Satan. A thing that would be impossible if he were God.

And one of the temptations was to bow down and worship Satan in return for rulership over the kingdoms of the earth.

This would not have been a temptation if Jesus was God. Why would God be tempted to worship Satan? Why would the offer of rulership over the kingdoms of the earth be a temptation to God? As if Satan could offer anything to God.

Now notice how Jesus rebeuffed Satan's temptation:

"Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”  Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
-Matthew 4:8-10.

Jesus, although tempted resisted, and said it is Jehovah God you must worship.

3. Who has taken the measurements of the spirit of Jehovah,
And who can instruct him as his adviser?
-Isaiah 40:13.

God is peerless. Without match or equal. There is no one that can counsel him, or question him.

Jesus, while on earth, learned obedience to God through the things he suffered:

"Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."
-Hebrews 5:8.

Jesus did not want to go through with dying the way he was about to. If you remember on the night before his death he prayed fervently for God to remove the cup from him. That is, his having to die as a sinner, a blasphemer. Jesus was agonizing over this. And he expressed it in his prayer to Jehovah just before he died. But notice, while he expressed his strong dislike of what he had to do, he even pleaded for it to be removed from him, he said he was willing to die the way Jehovah willed for him to:

And he said: “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you; remove this cup from me. Yet, not what I want, but what you want.”
-Mark 14:36.

What a moving verse this is. It shows Jesus' own thoughts on the matter and how he pleaded with Jehovah. But also his willingness to submit to his Father's will. Not his own. He "learned obedience"through the things he suffered.

There are many many many other things I can go on to relate to show how Jesus could not possibly be his Father. But these three things alone are enough for any reasonable person to conclude that they are not the same person.

There is no way Jesus could be God if he 1) died, 2) was tempted, 3) learned obedience by what he suffered.

 

[Deeje]

Not that I actually believe you're really interested in an answer, I subscribe to the Apostle's Creed, and yes, I remember it.

Where will I find the Apostles Creed in the gospels or any other writings of the apostles...? I can't seem to find it anywhere...

 

[Terry Sampson]

Where will I find the Apostles Creed in the gospels or any other writings of the apostles...? I can't seem to find it anywhere...

LOL! Feigned ignorance suits you well.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

LOL! Feigned ignorance suits you well.

I think it is a good question because there is no evidence the apostles wrote it or knew anything about it. It was probably given that name to make it sound more important. But it was really made up long after the time of the apostles.

 

[Deeje]

LOL! Feigned ignorance suits you well.

Nice dodge.
You haven't provided it.....if it exists and you base your own belief system on it...it should be in the scriptures.....please give me chapter and verse....I'll wait.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I think it is a good question

Are you a JW?

 

[rational experiences]

I had Jehovah Witness visit regularly and we chatted and I treated them with the respect that they deserved. They owned polite and good manners and believed in community and support, and like any group believe their owned interpretation of literature is correctly expressed and read.

Seeing that is all anyone is doing, reading literature, share the literature and self beliefs in groups. Community living accepted groups when those groups did not try to overthrow community life or lawful social conditions. For it is just a human opinion.

In human life, as I discussed with them, they believed that a son, being a human male proved spirituality in his male human life, by the conditions of the subject of the discussion.

For it is not just the fact that a son means male in human discussions using words, it is a fact that humans believe in spirit. The argument then becomes scientific, which I also discussed with them. Science claims its own human male son version of how it believes creation existed and spiritual inferred humans claim otherwise.

So our argument proves it was always about science, which they also concluded was the history of the majority of problems on Earth today. Groups who are dishonest. I admired how they really felt that they were motivated for a greater good, and I believed that they deserved my respect.

 

[Terry Sampson]

What is the primary question that JW's are answering in this division? Whats the Stumper?

Apparently, the primary question and Stumper is: "What does Terry Sampson believe?" If not, then it must be: "Why won't Terry Sampson debate us?"

 

[Scott C.]

Christians (non JW) generally believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and God himself, part of the trinity. But JW's as I know don't believe that the Holy Spirit is God, and they don't believe in the trinity as stipulated in the Athanasian Creed. They believe otherwise. Well, there will be many theological differences between the two faiths that one could not list in a post concisely.

As a Latter-day Saint I can relate to JWs in a couple of ways. One I don't accept the Trinity doctrine. Two, I consider my view of the Godhead to be biblical whereas the Trinity is not. I consider myself to be a Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept the Trinity, they believe their doctrine of Jehovah is biblical, and as far as I know consider themselves to be Christian. Having said that, the Jehovah's Witness non-trinitarian view is significantly different from my Church's non-trinitarian view. Apologies to my Jehovah's Witness friends if you don't like the comparison to my church.

 

[firedragon]

Seen one, seen 'em all. They pretty much stick to their Watchtower script.

Thats actually a good point to ponder.

 

[Eyes to See]

I had Jehovah Witness visit regularly and we chatted and I treated them with the respect that they deserved. They owned polite and good manners and believed in community and support, and like any group believe their owned interpretation of literature is correctly expressed and read.

Seeing that is all anyone is doing, reading literature, share the literature and self beliefs in groups. Community living accepted groups when those groups did not try to overthrow community life or lawful social conditions. For it is just a human opinion.

In human life, as I discussed with them, they believed that a son, being a human male proved spirituality in his male human life, by the conditions of the subject of the discussion.

For it is not just the fact that a son means male in human discussions using words, it is a fact that humans believe in spirit. The argument then becomes scientific, which I also discussed with them. Science claims its own human male son version of how it believes creation existed and spiritual inferred humans claim otherwise.

So our argument proves it was always about science, which they also concluded was the history of the majority of problems on Earth today. Groups who are dishonest. I admired how they really felt that they were motivated for a greater good, and I believed that they deserved my respect.

While having Bible-based literature is beneficial it is not nessecary. All of what I wrote in this thread for example did not come from any literature but on my Bible-based knowledge, and from the Bible itself.

Bible-based literature is merely the expressions of mature Christian elders. If there is nothing wrong to go to a place of worship to listen to mature Christians expound on scripture, certainly there is nothing wrong reading it in written form.

Of course it is not inspired of God. And Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be inspired. And as such they will err. Whether it be misspeaking from time to time from the platform, or even in written form. It will happen. And Jehovah's Witnesses know that and do not take the written literature as inspired. But they esteem it for what it is, understanding of the Bible from mature Christians in written form.

The ultimate source of Jehovah's Witness teaching is the Bible 100%, which is inspired of God.

 

[Eyes to See]

Thats actually a good point to ponder.

And yet here I've been expounding on everything asked without literature, from my own Bible-based knowledge, answering questions with scriptures, providing references, both scriptural and secular.

That's something to think about while you're at it as well.

 

[firedragon]

That's good, isn't it?
Conformity..... that's a lesson many a Church could benefit from, no?

I didn't honestly think of JW's this way before this. But as you say conformity is good and bad. Its called "Taklidh" in Arabic. The problem with that side of belief is that it could be dogmatic and blind. It has happened in most religions if not all.

Yet again, it is a genetic fallacy if I claim that JW's are wrong because watch tower is the controller like the old Catholic Church. Maybe their theology is great and more scriptural. I wish to understand.