The implausibility of brainless minds

[Thief]

Since we can alter the brain's & nervous system's circuitry by slicing, drugging & adding interfaces,
thatmpretty strongly points to consciousness being the result of physical processes in the brain.

Good point.

But could it be?....your mind must sort through lengthy bits and pieces, to perform any function.
It's all chemistry in this world. If your chemistry fails, that function fails.

But I've been blind seven days...did not stop 'seeing'.
I've had my arms go completely numb from the shoulder down....'dead meat'....still my 'feelings' didn't go away.

I recovered from my ailments. For now I'm still here.

I think a better focus might be...where do we go...when we sleep.
Awareness and the lack of it would seem to be the pivot point.

Unlike the scientists and doctors I've seen working this puzzle, we have only ourselves and the manner to which we reason.

If consideration to the afterlife fails....
Into the box you will go....the box into the ground.
Eternal darkness is physically real.

Should we then be more positive about the possibility...life after death.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good point.

But could it be?....your mind must sort through lengthy bits and bits, to perform any function.
It's all chemistry in this world. If your chemistry fails, that function fails.

But I've been blind seven days...did not stop 'seeing'.
I've had my arms go completely numb from the shoulder down....'dead meat'....still my 'feelings' didn't go away.

Seeing & feeling occur within the brain.
eyes & limbs merely send signals for the brain to interpret.

I recovered from my ailments. For now I'm still here.

Good!

I think a better focus might be...where do we go...when we sleep.
Awareness and the lack of it would seem to be the pivot point.

We stay right where we are. The old noggin still functions, albeit differently.

If consideration to the afterlife fails....
Into the box you will go....the box into the ground.
Eternal darkness is physically real.
Should we then be more positive about the possibility...life after death.

A permanent dirt nap doesn't appeal to me either....but it appears that it's what I face.

 

[atanu]

Nevertheless, the evidence continues to mount that there is absolutely no mental activity that occurs independently of brain activity. .

I think in your defintion, Mind and Consciousness are same. In my understanding, Mind is reflection of Consciousness.

Now Consciousness studies chiefly depend on verbal reports. What kind of verbal report you wish to test for unembodied consciousness? Is it possible?

OTOH, Quantum Mechanics strongly suggests that wave function collapse takes place on observation, which means that observation by a conscious subject precedes wave function collapse.

 

[Thief]

Seeing & feeling occur within the brain.
eyes & limbs merely send signals for the brain to interpret.

We stay right where we are. The old noggin still functions, albeit differently.

A permanent dirt nap doesn't appeal to me either....but it appears that it's what I face.

So we're on to it.

As this is science versus religion...I lean to faith....not religion.
I use science, as I do love it.

This form we wander in sends signals to the brain....yeah.
Then we die.

Why having lived at all?.....to become spirit.
Your linear existence creates the individual you are becoming.

In the mean time, our dreams seem to be some indication of our pending existence...elsewhere.

 

[Thief]

I think in your defintion, Mind and Consciousness are same. In my understanding, Mind is reflection of Consciousness.

Now Consciousness studies chiefly depend on verbal reports. What kind of verbal report you wish to test for unembodied consciousness? Is it possible?

OTOH, Quantum Mechanics strongly suggests that wave function collapse takes place on observation, which means that observation by a conscious subject precedes wave function collapse.

One of those professionals I mentioned earlier spoke of quantum science.
His take came from the observation.... a thought on one side of your brain seems to trigger a response on the other side.....without a direct physical connection.

It then seems your mind can 'touch' different portions of your brain, and the thought process is not all....connected.

He mentioned quantum mechanics, as cause and effect at the quantum level, seems to misbehave in that way.

 

[atanu]

A permanent dirt nap doesn't appeal to me either....but it appears that it's what I face.

As we cannot sleep continually but have to wake up to face what we have created, a death sleep, though unconscious will however still propel you out with a shovel -- till all work is done and everthing is really clean.

 

[Willamena]

Most religions depend on the belief that mental activity can occur independently of brains.

That may be true of many religion-goers, but in the actual philosophies it is rare. Most religious models, as far as I've seen, take an epistemelogical approach as well as an ontological approach to cosmology. The two approaches are smoothly integrated in monistic thinking, in my own words, rather than being alienated as they are in dualistic thinking. In other words, it's about a cosmology that includes the human experience, rather than exclude it as a model of just 'the objective world' must. The model of just 'the objective world' fails to model half the world as seen from the perspective of an individual mind.

Take the whole idea of "brainlessness" --the very word indicates that "brain", the vehicle of "mind" as part of an ontological model, is now being threatened in its role as a component in that model. But it's not, really --it's just being used in another model, one in which it takes the shape of "mind perceives brain". A "soul or spirit" is an ontological model of the human's conscious experience. Same deal: it's "mind perceives world" that has been taken down a notch to become "brainlessness" in an ontological model.

The expectations of things labelled "magical" are the same. MRIs are looking for something they'll never find, simply because it's being modeled inadequately.

 

[atanu]

One of those professionals I mentioned earlier spoke of quantum science.
His take came from the observation.... a thought on one side of your brain seems to trigger a response on the other side.....without a direct physical connection.

It then seems your mind can 'touch' different portions of your brain, and the thought process is not all....connected.

He mentioned quantum mechanics, as cause and effect at the quantum level, seems to misbehave in that way.

Yes this is the Binding Problem that is just the Soft problem. There is then the Hard problem.

But all these problems arise, IMO, because Copernicus et al., first presuppose a duality -- that mind and universe are two distinct things and that the mind and brain are again two different things. Then try to see which gives rise to which and while doing so, they give precedence to the Seen rather than to the Seer.

Whereas, the brain is a waking state representation of Mind of the Seer. In dream and in deep sleep states, the waking state representation will not hold true from the first party perspective.

 

[PolyHedral]

The entire universe can be explained in terms of a single process, i.e. the four fundamental interactions. In this model, all thought, human or otherwise, is an emergent consequence of the laws of physics.

To reverse the model, and say that physics in all its glory is a consequence of some aspect of human thinking sounds ludicrous for the very simple reason that humans struggle massively merely understanding how the universe works at its deepest levels, let alone actually working through it.

 

[Penumbra]

A mind in all proven forms requires an enormous amount of calculation and activity to be maintained. The amount of activity required to make a decision is astounding. Even in a basic moment of awareness, there is a vast amount of activity to interpret information from the senses.

It still hasn't been determined what qualia truly are, but what has been determined is
-that decisions often precede conscious awareness of those decisions
-that level of awareness can be decreased or increased by physical or chemical means
-that damage or alteration to the brain can change a person's level of intelligence, a person's personality, a person's set of ethics, and so forth. You can literally remove someone's ability to feel certain feelings, physically.

Any claims regarding some supernatural substance that can take a snapshot of the current state of the mind and transport it somewhere else, or that can expand or move elsewhere when not intertwined with a body, seem to be very unfounded and very unreliable to me. It's like someone claiming to me that they can run Windows 7 (a process which requires an enormous amount of calculation to exist) on something other than a computing device, but then offering no evidence that they can do so.

 

[atanu]

----Any claims regarding some supernatural substance that can take a snapshot of the current state of the mind and transport it somewhere else, or that can expand or move elsewhere when not intertwined with a body, seem to be very unfounded and very unreliable to me. It's like someone claiming to me that they can run Windows 7 (a process which requires an enormous amount of calculation to exist) on something other than a computing device, but then offering no evidence that they can do so.

No one actually claimed that.

 

[Penumbra]

No one actually claimed that.

Did you read my post?

 

[atanu]

Did you read my post?

I do not understand. My comment was particular to the blue highlighted part. You are welcome to explain again, if not too inconvenient.

 

[Penumbra]

I do not understand. My comment was particular to the blue highlighted part. You are welcome to explain again, if not too inconvenient.

I posted a variety of things, which you did not contest. I posted a metaphor, saying it's "like" someone saying this, and you responded by saying nobody said that.

 

[atanu]

I posted a variety of things, which you did not contest. I posted a metaphor, saying it's "like" someone saying this, and you responded by saying nobody said that.

Oh. Angry? I agree with all you said except this one about Windows 7 metaphor, on which i have a different take.

 

[Penumbra]

Oh. Angry? I agree with all you said except this one about Windows 7 metaphor, on which i have a different take.

Not angry, just explaining it again like you asked.

How do you propose that a mind, of which all known ones require an enormous amount of calculation to exist, can maintain identity outside of a brain or other computing device, and what evidence can you provide to support your propositions?

 

[atanu]

Not angry, just explaining it again like you asked.

How do you propose that a mind, of which all known ones require an enormous amount of calculation to exist, can maintain identity outside of a brain or other computing device, and what evidence can you provide to support your propositions?

How an element adheres to its half life decay equation?

(Reminding that no one claimed that Windows 7 can work outside a suitable machine. And that brings the question: Have you read my other posts?)

 

[Penumbra]

How an element adheres to its half life decay equation?

What does that have to do with a mind?

(Reminding that no one claimed that Windows 7 can work outside a suitable machine. And that brings the question: Have you read my other posts?)

Again, it's a metaphor. The mind requires enormous amount of calculations to exist, and yet some propose that it can exist on its own, or outside of a mind. Or that consciousness can somehow be worthwhile without a mind.

 

[Willamena]

The entire universe can be explained in terms of a single process, i.e. the four fundamental interactions.

Well, there's five in some models, but I agree.

Skandha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PolyHedral]

How an element adheres to its half life decay equation?

Computation again, albiet a non-determinsitic one this time. The quantum mechanics involved allow the components of the nucleus to escape.

Well, there's five in some models, but I agree.

Skandha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suffering quite demonstratably depends on none of those things. In fact, almost all suffering relies on physical objects; if you can control those, you can remove suffering.