The Holy Land: one-state solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Badran]

Well thats the old irony people are.
For example here in germany the anti nuclear energy movement is big. Probably the biggest on the whole earth.
And after the tsunami in japan they gained momentum. Its possible that in a few years germany may be nuclear energy free. But it wont be a better world. Nuclear energy still is important in germany and so it would result in energy shortages which can not be filled with renewable energy.
So germany will buy energy from its neighbours who have nuclear energy.

Which will result in a higher price for energy. And thats were many people will realise that everything has consequences.

Now i may be against certain things while in the future these things may safe me.

Well i'm not necessarily against usage of nuclear energy in general, rather just using it in warfare as a weapon. I'm glad to hear though that this happening in your country, as from my prospective this is a good thing.

Oh yes you are.

Trust me, i'm not. If this was some general topic, i wouldn't be trying to argue against your 'moral compass'. However, i'm approaching this from the moral point because the elimination of it or making it less important seems to me as the main problem. So its aimed as a practical approach to point out a problem, not just trying to push my own morals or moral arguments on you in general.

I dont see all arabs as my enemies.
I dont see all palestinians as my enemies.
I dont see all muslims as my enemies. For example until a certain age i had many muslima as good friends. Lets just say that shifted and ironically iam still on good terms with their parents or grandparents while their children perhaps watch too much Al Manar all day.

Well, i'm sad that this is the case. I didn't mean to say though that you necessarily view all those groups as enemies. But you saying that you don't have to choose between your own people and your enemies as you put it, led to me naturally to put it like i did.

Any human will see the death of a family member as more severe as a death of a person they dont know. Thats all iam trying to say.

And i completely agree.

What i am trying to say on the other hand, is that these feelings don't make either outcome a more or less evil than the other. Evil is evil, no matter who it is done to. Therefore, it can never be justified to kill an entire population of people knowingly including the innocent for whatever reason.

 

[croak]

we all have our own indigenous ethnicities, we have created the only Arab democracy in the region. the Palestinians on the other hand have never lived under a democracy.
so lets keep our Arab democracy as it is.

Don't we count, Caladan? We can vote.

 

[Daniel B]

Absolutely.
they try to establish a European culture in the middle east. it has failed before and it has failed again in Israel.
the rest of us have no problem with european science or medicine. however we know who we are, and we certainly know where we come from.
Its not Warsaw.

Indeed, and that's one of the major points I came up with. Basically, what I'm saying is Mizrachi Jews (=Jews from Arab countries) need to be turned back into Arabic-speakers who can easily integrate with Arabs, and Ashkenazi Jews (=European Jews) need to work in that direction as well.

If we want to make Jews as they are an acceptable populace in the ME - then this is the only way. There are plenty of 'different' groups in the ME, not everyone is the same. There are Bedouin, Druze, Christians - no reason there shouldn't be Jews as well.

 

[Daniel B]

I heard it in a rant by a Satmar rabbi against a couple of Yeshiva boys who happened to speak modern Hebrew to each other. First he asked them whether they were S'fardi, which they replied "ken", then he went off blaming them for every world event that caused Ashkenazi death. What I related here was but a portion of what he screamed at them.

How do you know he was from "Satmar"? Did he wear a sign around his neck? Tens of other groups of chassidim dress exactly the same. And how do you know he was a rabbi?

The guy you saw sounds like a total nutcase. Maybe someone with brain damage.

Anyways, a few stories I was able to find about the Neturei Karta with a quick web search:

Neturei Karta "Rabbi" Rec´d $55,000 from Arafat - Jewish World - Israel News - Israel National News
Dei'ah veDibur - Information & Insight - NEWS
Impostors in Hassidic Garb
Neturei Karta: What is it?
Neturei Karta - Jews Against Zionism
Zionism and Israel - True Torah Nazis - The true face of Orthodox Anti-Zionism

The first site is an ultra-right Religious Zionist settler piece of propaganda (Arutz Sheva).

The second (Yated Ne'eman) is about as neutral as Der Sturmer.

The third (Aish), same story.

Fourth (ADL), same story.

And the 5th and 6th - I just gave you a nice example of how reliable this site are in my earlier post with some links about Satmar. They refer to Satmar as being a "tiny group" (in the past, it said "tiny sect").

All of these links are Zionist propaganda mouthpieces.

However, much of their criticism is indeed correct. Assuming you read Hebrew, I'd like to you read this: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Nkcherem.jpg (without www).

Rough translation:

To clarify and to enlighten
It is now close to 60 years since the Zionists established their rule over Eretz Yisroel (the Land of Israel) by founding the impure Zionist state, which brazenly stole the name "Israel" and has waged a full and open war against God through its mere existence... And this new path, which has never been the path of our forefathers and our rabbis, to replace the study of the Jewish viewpoint regarding the exile with matters of state and political affairs, and to mingle with the peoples, and to try to bring about the dismantlement of the Zionist state by force... And because of this we have found it to be our duty to clarify:
That these actions go straight against the views of the leadership of Neturei Karta,
And it is the total opposite of the ways of Neturei Karta We must clarify how much we have been hurt by the huge desecration of God's Name caused by these actions and it is impossible to remain silent on this issue.

I am sick of the entire world of Neturei Karta being spat at for the couple of guys going to Iran, Gaza and Ramallah. While personally I don't think what they're doing is so very bad, I do mind it that the entire Zionist world likes to just crash on the entire Neturei Karta movement as if it were one. Truth is, it's far from being one. There are two main groups: the moderate group counts about 80% of the total strength and wrote the above; they strongly condemn any association with Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians and strongly condemn using the internet in any way, including to disseminate their ideology. The radical group counts about 20% and believes cooperating with Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians is a great thing to do, and that they should every possible method (including the internet) to spread their view. This latter group loves to pretend it represents hundreds of thousands of Jews - but in fact it's more like 100 families worldwide. The *real* NK however, who strongly oppose their actions (as you can see above), are much bigger. You won't hear from them as much, since they don't have a website and don't get involved in any sort of news or politics. They also don't hold flag burnings in Kikar Shabbat on Independence Day. All they do is just try to live their lifes in peace, isolated in Meah Shearim, and fast on the Zionist holidays and ask for Moshiach. Now you tell me: after reading this, can you still, with an honest mind, tell me NK are crazy? (All of them - not the radical group).

 

[England my lionheart]

Indeed, and that's one of the major points I came up with. Basically, what I'm saying is Mizrachi Jews (=Jews from Arab countries) need to be turned back into Arabic-speakers who can easily integrate with Arabs, and Ashkenazi Jews (=European Jews) need to work in that direction as well.

Why do they need to,why should they even consider it

If we want to make Jews as they are an acceptable populace in the ME - then this is the only way. There are plenty of 'different' groups in the ME, not everyone is the same. There are Bedouin, Druze, Christians - no reason there shouldn't be Jews as well.

Yeah,why don't they grovel and make a general apology for breathing,"if we want to make the Jews" who's "we",can't believe posts like this.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Yeah,why don't they grovel and make a general apology for breathing,"if we want to make the Jews" who's "we",can't believe posts like this.

That submissive attitude of his disgusts me.

 

[Rakhel]

Indeed, and that's one of the major points I came up with. Basically, what I'm saying is Mizrachi Jews (=Jews from Arab countries) need to be turned back into Arabic-speakers who can easily integrate with Arabs, and Ashkenazi Jews (=European Jews) need to work in that direction as well.

If we want to make Jews as they are an acceptable populace in the ME - then this is the only way. There are plenty of 'different' groups in the ME, not everyone is the same. There are Bedouin, Druze, Christians - no reason there shouldn't be Jews as well.

"Need to be turned back into Arab speakers"? And whom do you propose "turn" them back into Arab-speakers? What about Ladino? What about Hebrew? What about Yiddish? What about those languages? Should we just let them die? As if those languages(Ladino speakers are hard to find as it is) mean nothing?
By that logic shouldn't the English be speaking Norse? Or Gaelic? Or even Latin?
Do you not realize how many languages have died because people were "turned" into something they are not, just to please someone else?

You are proposing the death of, not just a religion, but an entire culture.

 

[Caladan]

Indeed, and that's one of the major points I came up with. Basically, what I'm saying is Mizrachi Jews (=Jews from Arab countries) need to be turned back into Arabic-speakers who can easily integrate with Arabs, and Ashkenazi Jews (=European Jews) need to work in that direction as well.

Do you understand what you are saying?
'Mizrahi Jews', its a term forced on Arabs by the european establishment.
'need to be turned back into'?
really? and who is going to make us turned and model us into an integration program with Arab Muslims?
no thank you. most of us already live well with them. do you want to turn us into Muslims now?
You are de facto brainwashed by the european establishment. we are not your dolls to toy with.
these days are long gone. in a matter of decades. the Ashkenazi gene pool wlll gradually disappear from the Israeli landscape. and its a good thing to.
because as we all already know in Israel. Ashkenazis are terrified of freedom.
and Allah knows, that us Arabs in Israel live as only free men can.

If we want to make Jews as they are an acceptable populace in the ME

Honey. I am already accepted in the middle east.
my family has been living among the Arab ethnicities from before the days of Islam.
you on the other hand.
not so much.
not even by your 'Mizrahi' Jews.
this is the reason, that those of us who are Arabs and take Ashkenazi friends, make sure that it is the atheists that we make friends with.
the ones who know they are guests in this region. and that this land was not promised to them. not by Allah, nor by Yahweh.

then this is the only way. There are plenty of 'different' groups in the ME, not everyone is the same. There are Bedouin, Druze, Christians - no reason there shouldn't be Jews as well.

Wow. and it only took you 6 years in Israel to come with this.
Look young man. I have served with the Druze in the same company. I have trained Christians, and I did time with Bedouins in military prison.
we are already forced to live as brothers as it is. and as Allah wills it. we have done a damn good job. in case you haven't read about our reputation.
because we actually do win wars.

 

[England my lionheart]

I think Daniel B is a POE

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I think Daniel B is a POE

Likely, but Caladan isn't helping things.

 

[Caladan]

Actualy what im saying is long overdued to be said in debates here.
its what weve been saying in the middle east for years as it is.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Actualy what im saying is long overdued to be said in debates here.
its what weve been saying in the middle east for years as it is.

Spoken by a sunny day nationalist. It matters not whether you served Israel, as soon as Israel made a decision you hated(regarding your fiancee), you abandoned her.

 

[Caladan]

Spoken by a sunny day nationalist. It matters not whether you served Israel, as soon as Israel made a decision you hated(regarding your fiancee), you abandoned her.

You really get lame by the hour dont you yosi.
Israel is just a country. get over it. its not like youve been living there.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

You really get lame by the hour dont you yosi.
Israel is just a country. get over it. its not like youve been living there.

Not for lack of trying. The current state doesn't care much for Kahanists. Known ones get deported, like I did. BTW, didn't you just contradict yourself?

 

[Caladan]

exactly you said it yourself. they don't like the religious too much in Israel. so why dont you give this nation a break already.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

exactly you said it yourself. they don't like the religious too much in Israel. so why dont you give this nation a break already.

Unlike you, I see a future beyond a "two state solution" which is, in essence, political suicide. Further, I see a future that would welcome the random member of Kach back into the state. Unfortunately for some, the hypocrite has little future in any Israel.

 

[Caladan]

my god. this is American jewry?
your christian.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

my god. this is American jewry?
your christian.

You may want to watch the personal attacks. That staff label doesn't entitle you to do anything you want.

 

[Caladan]

whatever you say mac. your the master race.

 

[Rakhel]

whatever you say mac. your the master race.

You did not just say what I think you said...