Then its a good reason to reject it,why should it be the end of Israel,why not the end of Palestine
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The Holy Land: one-state solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
- Thread starter Daniel B
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Then its a good reason to reject it,why should it be the end of Israel,why not the end of Palestine
It's the end of Palestine as well. Though I guess the Palestinians win more than the Israelis do, since the Palestinians will gain citizenship and the right to vote for a real recognized government, something they haven't had so far. I'm sure plenty of Israelis would object to that.
Fact is, the Palestinians gain more than the Israelis, because the Israelis already have a lot more, things the Palestinians lack so far.
The Israelis have a lot more because they worked for it,so instead of being bent on destroying Israel the Palestinians could have taken a leaf out of their book and did the same.
I'm going to get bashed for this, but here goes:
No solution will work until Palestinians acknowledge the presence of the Israelis and allow them to live in peace where they are, in Israel. Palestinians are entitled to some land as well though...the land they were also promised. Not all of Israel though. Naming it whatever, it doesn't really matter. If the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to be obliterated, they would have done it a long time ago. They certainly have the military power to do so...
Do I agree with the settlements? No. They need to pull back and give Palestinians their fair land as well.
Do I agree with either side? No. Palestinians are a hard crowd to please. They want all or nothing and it's impossible to get that.
A one-state solution won't work until both sides give in, and that's not looking very likely.
Making the official language Arabic is a huge insult to the Israelis; why not have a dual official language? Hebrew AND Arabic? Why one or the other?
I admire anyone who seriously thinks of positive ideas towards peace though...it's noble even though it may not work as presented.
No solution will work until Palestinians acknowledge the presence of the Israelis and allow them to live in peace where they are, in Israel. Palestinians are entitled to some land as well though...the land they were also promised. Not all of Israel though. Naming it whatever, it doesn't really matter. If the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to be obliterated, they would have done it a long time ago. They certainly have the military power to do so...
Do I agree with the settlements? No. They need to pull back and give Palestinians their fair land as well.
Do I agree with either side? No. Palestinians are a hard crowd to please. They want all or nothing and it's impossible to get that.
A one-state solution won't work until both sides give in, and that's not looking very likely.
Making the official language Arabic is a huge insult to the Israelis; why not have a dual official language? Hebrew AND Arabic? Why one or the other?
I admire anyone who seriously thinks of positive ideas towards peace though...it's noble even though it may not work as presented.
Bismillah
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Hello Daniel, I'm glad of your open mindedness.
What do you think about groups such as Hamas which do not recognize Israel at the time or Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu and Lieberman himself who favors stealing Arab land and a form of ethnic cleansing? How do you propose to merge such parties?
Furthermore, what of those colonies in the West Bank and Gaza. Will the Jewish colonists be entitled to their property and what do you plan to do with those Arabs whose land has been taken from them? You give equal importance to the "Jewish diaspora" but the standard of living between a Palestinian refugee and a Jew in Europe or America is not comparable.
Why would Israel concede so much when they are unwilling to withdraw from places such as Ariel that render future Palestine impossible?
Bismillah
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Fatah has done so for decades
Abbas was praised by Netanyahu as a valiant partner for peace and you can look at the number of attacks staged from the W.B against illegal Israeli colonies or greater Israel. Obviously this policy of peace first hasn't been reciprocated by the Israeli side however, they continue to fund illegal colonies with gusto and favor ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their historic land.
Good luck getting that.
They are squabbling for less than 20% of what was promised to them.
They don't want to kill them, they just want their land.
I hear you, Bismillah, really I do.
This is one dispute I have given so much thought to, and I just can't come up with a solution that will make everyone happy, and it's probably impossible to make everyone happy.
My question is, where do the Israelis go? What is the ideal solution from the Palestinian's view? I've tried searching and all I find is confusion. Enlighten me as to what the Palestinians actually want, and where the Israelis are supposed to go.
This is one dispute I have given so much thought to, and I just can't come up with a solution that will make everyone happy, and it's probably impossible to make everyone happy.
My question is, where do the Israelis go? What is the ideal solution from the Palestinian's view? I've tried searching and all I find is confusion. Enlighten me as to what the Palestinians actually want, and where the Israelis are supposed to go.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Thats right. The settlements would have to go.
Thats far more possible than to ask the israeli jews to live with all the crazies who want to kill them in one country.
Sure if the arabs want to turn their homes into glass they could do that.
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YouTube - Explosion nuclear
Remember the arab countries wont have MAD on their side. Its not like the cold war. If Israel was seriously in danger and arab armies were victoriously marching twards Tel Aviv i think Israel would use the bomb. Its the only sane thing to do. The only other option would be to watch while the arab armies start the biggest pogrom ever.
From what propaganda truck did you fall of? Have you forgotten why the Sephardi fled Sepharad? Have you forgotten why Rambam ended up in egypt in the first place?
A secular state? For how long till we cant access the kotel anymore?
Will the sefer yosef burn again?
Oh my did you hear? We are tearing down the Al Aqsa again. Its not true? Tell that to those that were murdered by the mob.
There is no insurance in your plan. Its only based on the goodwill of people that no one could ever turn against the jews in your fairy country.
And thats not much after the history of the last 60 years.
And dont you even dare call me a zionist. Iam waiting for the moshiach.
Bismillah
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Stop building colonies in the West Bank. Stop cleansing Palestinians from East Jerusalem would be a great start.
Autonomy.
They want Gaza and the W.B (connected by a strip of land under Israeli control). They Reject the annexation of any colonies within Palestinian land that would break the contiguity of Palestinian land and set the future state up for failure. The demand that Palestine not relinquish it's most important religious shrine. The demand that Palestinian sovereignty be respected.
In exchange for those colonies that are annexed by Israel, equal land is to be exchanged in favour of Palestine, however some colonies such as Ariel or Ma'ale Adumim pose inherent risks. They either compromise internal security or control vastly important natural resources to be annexed by Israel. There have been propositions for "creative solutions" by the Palestinian side such as giving the inhabitants the choice of Palestinian citizenship and serving as model cities or else arbitrarily divided amongst the two coalitions, but Israel has unilaterally rejected such compromises.
It instead favors complete annexation of these colonies which set Palestine up for failure and at the same time enlarge both these colonies and others through funding and construction at an increased rate while ejecting its domestic inhabitants.
Clearly, if Palestine fails in the future things will revert to as they are now and Israel will have the green light to once again invade and colonize the land on the auspice of security and failure of the Arabs to create a functioning government.
My solution means that everyone gets to stay where they are. It will be one single country. That means that whoever lives in Ariel, Maaleh Adumim, Beitar Illit, Modi'in Illit etc can simply continue to live there. That's the whole benefit of a one-state solution: nothing really needs to change, other than removing the fences and walls and checkpoints, and integrating the governments, and the people.....
I think Hamas is way more likely to accept this than Yisrael Beiteinu (Lieberman). Hamas has, in the past, said that Jews would be allowed to live in Palestine under Islamic rule. The only difference here is that we won't have Islamic rule - we'll have a guaranteed secular state, and only a majority of 80% can authorize changes to the constitution.
As for immigrants: as pointed out, Palestinian refugees are generally speaking a lot poorer than European and American Jews. That is true, and therefore, just and fair rules for each of these populations need to be established. Basically, that means no more free plane tickets, no free money, and the obligation to spend years in national service. Somehow, I think the number of potential immigrants will dramatically drop among western Jews, while Palestinians will still come. For both Jews and Palestinians, funds should be set aside for bringing the poorest who really need help to the Holy Land.
Funding for the whole thing would come primarily from inside: we'll be able to cancel most of the army, and immigrants (returning refugees, mainly) performing national service will perform a lot of work the government currently pays people for. In exchange for their work, they will get free (basic) housing and a relatively low salary - but their situation will still be a lot better than in some refugee camp in Lebanon.
There is a reason why requesting funds from external sources such as the UN or other Arab countries is not included in the preferred options: the new country should build a sense of responsibility amongst its citizens, and that will be difficult if the funding comes from outside. The people should understand that they, themselves, together, need to build the new country. Of course, the option of receiving donations (NOT LOANS!!!) remains open; I could imagine that, for example, the UN, EU, and Saudi Arabia may want to contribute serious amounts, which would be welcomed, but should not be a primary source of funding.
I think Hamas is way more likely to accept this than Yisrael Beiteinu (Lieberman). Hamas has, in the past, said that Jews would be allowed to live in Palestine under Islamic rule. The only difference here is that we won't have Islamic rule - we'll have a guaranteed secular state, and only a majority of 80% can authorize changes to the constitution.
As for immigrants: as pointed out, Palestinian refugees are generally speaking a lot poorer than European and American Jews. That is true, and therefore, just and fair rules for each of these populations need to be established. Basically, that means no more free plane tickets, no free money, and the obligation to spend years in national service. Somehow, I think the number of potential immigrants will dramatically drop among western Jews, while Palestinians will still come. For both Jews and Palestinians, funds should be set aside for bringing the poorest who really need help to the Holy Land.
Funding for the whole thing would come primarily from inside: we'll be able to cancel most of the army, and immigrants (returning refugees, mainly) performing national service will perform a lot of work the government currently pays people for. In exchange for their work, they will get free (basic) housing and a relatively low salary - but their situation will still be a lot better than in some refugee camp in Lebanon.
There is a reason why requesting funds from external sources such as the UN or other Arab countries is not included in the preferred options: the new country should build a sense of responsibility amongst its citizens, and that will be difficult if the funding comes from outside. The people should understand that they, themselves, together, need to build the new country. Of course, the option of receiving donations (NOT LOANS!!!) remains open; I could imagine that, for example, the UN, EU, and Saudi Arabia may want to contribute serious amounts, which would be welcomed, but should not be a primary source of funding.
I won't be adding anything to this interesting discussion, i just want to ask about something.
Do you mean that you simply think thats whats going to happen, or does saying 'Its the only sane thing to do' mean that you personally think this is the right thing to do?
Do you mean that you simply think thats whats going to happen, or does saying 'Its the only sane thing to do' mean that you personally think this is the right thing to do?
Bismillah
Submit
Daniel you seem to be setting conditions of acceptance that you, yourself, have admitted are unrealistic and most likely to be rejected by the right wing like the Yisrael Beiteinu Party. If they cannot agree on allocating the land in Gaza and the West Bank, what is the hope that they will welcome desperately poor refugees and compromise the entire premise of that nation?
Close to zero and if the proposal is unrealistic then it is unhelpful in my opinion.
Close to zero and if the proposal is unrealistic then it is unhelpful in my opinion.
Accept it? Haha. Even the leftists wouldn't accept it. It's the *end* of Israel I am proposing! Not Labor, not Kadima, almost nobody would accept it. Maybe Hadash, Balad, and maaaaybe Meretz.
I'm not being realistic. I'm basically saying this is what I would like to see. I realize it will never happen. Instead we're looking at war and bloodshed and a lot of people getting killed over nothing.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Meretz would never accept it.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Many many sephardim already left for good when the almohads went taliban. Those that remained usually lived in the northern part of the iberian peninsula.
So you agree that the Rambam fled because of the almohads? Now think about certain groups within the glorious freedom fighters of the palestinians.
If the state of israel were about to lose a war against unknown arab armies it most certainly would first(if not before) threaten said countries with nuclear strikes.
After that pandoras box might open.
If i think if its the right thing? Hm do i want my family to be murdered?
It would be the last line of defense with the only alternative of certain destruction. Obviously everything is possible.
Let's make this clear - Judaism is NOT Zionism! I need only point towards the biggest leader we ever had in this field, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum. See here (add www - I can't post links yet): " jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/teitelbaum.cfm ".
For a couple of excerpts from one of his books, see here: docs.google.com/a//document/pub?id=1L2mpbbiiJhozB1o6zdmyxRObfGH79LnODR2HYIl51LI (add https )
And just so you know this is not a small sect: this is an annual celebration in his memory. This video is from 2007; he died in 1980. See: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6445564357351911107 .
Or a wedding at Satmar: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4905529922904887021
Another one, at the end of Shabbat: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4982542403965709581
Small celebration a couple of days after a wedding: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=315640509711733551
Just to prove Satmar is not a 'tiny sect' (which Zionists often claim). It's about 100,000 people worldwide. They may not be huge by Islamic standards, but they're definitely not a 'tiny sect'.
As an example, check the Zionist liesite here: (www) zionism-israel.com/his/jewish_anti_zionism.htm , it says: "tiny groups of reactionary ultraorthodox Jews, especially the Neturei Karta, who call themselves Jews against Zionism, the Satmar and similar groups,".
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