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The Hijab Problem

9-18-1

Active Member
And so.... what?
Where I live Muslim youth is as different to Muslim extremism as could be.

You're not trying to tell us that Caesar, or Genghis Kan, or Cleopatra were better, nicer, sweeter more wonderful folks I hope?

That begs the question: Just who and what do you hold in high regard, trust and esteem? :shrug:

Islam is itself extremist - I don't actually care about Muslims, the entire premises of Islam are both false and extreme. For example, claiming the Qur'an is the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god, that there can be no final revelations and Muhammad is the final messenger, and Islam must be established as the only acceptable religion etc. is all as extreme as it gets. This, when taken into account that the Qur'an is forged from Christian strophic hymns and apocryphal texts, that the idol of Muhammad didn't actually arise until much later and Islam viciously spread by the sword, is at the peak of extremism, and it has nothing to do with Muslims (who are victims to the ideology) but everything to do with Islam.

The entire past few thousand years are full of patriarchy: it is coincidental with the dark ages of man. It's too bad the religions don't teach people about the cycles: most people are not even aware of any cycles beyond the 365.25 day solar cycle or the 28 day lunar one. There is a cycle of 25 920 years within which human conscious peaks and falls. Its last peak was ~11500 BCE and its last fall was ~500 AD. All of this patriarchy nonsense can be found near the latter, and that involves your Caesar, Genghis Kan, Cleopatra etc.

What is it with Muhammadans that always try to point fingers elsewhere away from Islam? It's simple: they have a phobia of criticisms of Islam, hence 'Islamophobia' which Muslims project outward and imbue all others as having. That is the backwards degeneracy of Islam: projection and it is all Muslims really do. They simply can't take criticisms without trying to 'label' someone something or point fingers elsewhere.

I don't believe that!
Many of the wonderful discoveries have been found by accident, humanity fell over them! :)

"Belief" is not a virtue. The reason why is present in your response.

Discovering something by accident is not wisdom. Discovering something by accident, becoming fascinated by it, studying it, and learning how it works and why, and using it to benefit others and make the world a better place, is wisdom. There are, you know, a lot of 'discoveries' that have been used to inflict pain and suffering: are such people 'wise'?

I don't mind what other people believe, in fact I usually acknowledge other people's faiths, religions, cultures etc. I can only think of one religion which I heartily criticise because it's every word or sentence seems like a 'sell' to me.

If someone "believes" something that is not true, and that "belief" empowers them to see/treat others in a way that dehumanizes them, it does not deserve respect. One can respect ones right to "believe" what they wish, but with that does not come accept what they "believe". This is precisely what Islam does: full of "believers" condemning others for not "believing" what they "believe" which puts them into a separate category: "unbeliever". This is the divisiveness of Islam, and Christianity before it. Here in Canada, the Liberals are running with the platform 'Diversity is Our Strength' because Islam is divisive.

But I've gotta tell you........ your thread and posts here seem like a 'sell' as well, only you seem like the folks that I sometimes see in our town squares, ranting and shouting as they wave their hands around......... I give them good distance as I walk past. :

It's actually the other way around: it is the religious institutions that are selling. They sell notions of perfect books, perfect men, perfect religions etc. and one need only "believe". In Islam, "belief" is a virtue, but in reality, it is the single-most degenerative thing a person can do (to "believe" something) because it requires no use of conscience: self science or inquiry. One need not make any effort to inquire regarding "belief" - you just "believe", and this "belief" carries on through ones life, which, becomes their own source of ignorance/suffering.

"Beliefs" can be (and often are) never actually grounded in reality, as is the case with Islam. It is anti-conscience.

Ah.... so you had trouble with that?

Lol nice projection: no, that would be you. If you don't understand how asking for a picture; objectification of a woman based on how she looks/appears is precisely the *problem* the hijab itself represents. And you ask for a picture of a woman! Lol

No it isn't, not for all Muslim women.
Around here, when a Muslim woman wears hijab it's usually because she feels more comfortable with it. We have good laws here to protect people from oppression etc, and many Muslim women are happy to just wear head scarves. :shrug:

She feels more comfortable because she feels "protected" from misogynist men. That's the entire point of the hijab: if you're not wearing one, you are more likely to be raped than if you were wearing one. That is where the "comfort" comes from, but it is not a solution to anything. It is a consequence of another problem: that Muhammadan men who idolize (worship) Muhammad view women as sex objects, precisely in the same way Muhammad did. Muslims don't realize this because they have adopted an idolized version of Muhammad that is essentially the opposite of who/what he actually was: a perverse and sexually degenerated misogynist warlord.

Look..... you couldn't do it!
Many many women follow fashions in dress, make-up, footwear etc, just to be more attractive to others! The top womens magazines focus upon 'attraction' and they are the top mags because women buy them.

Who the f*ck cares what women do or don't do? If they want to appear more attractive to others, let them. If men can't handle their own sexual degeneracy and can't help but objectify women as sex objects, that is the problem of the man, not the woman. This backwards thinking is so prevalent in Islam it is unbelievable: blame the woman for a man getting too horny and raping her. This is f*cking disgusting and why Islam is a degenerative illness.

My wife's colleagues are mostly all in to 'attractiveness' and go as far as to have breast enhancements and botox treatments.

Who the f*ck cares what they do or don't do, you? What gives you the right to judge what women do or don't do with their body? This is again the degenerative patriarchy that is embedded in Islam - that women are property of men. It's disgusting.

You should research more in to who women are, what women want and what they strive for 'IN GENERAL' and that might help to relax your intensity over the subject of Gender Equality and more.

Honestly. :)

Lol "research more into who women are" what is this? I don't research women, I have relationships with them. I dated a Muslim woman for many years, and my experience with her and what she shared about her past (she was raped as a child) made it pretty explicitly clear that Islam is putrid toxic masculinity rooted in sexual degeneracy, which is precisely what Muhammad was. So the women of Islam have this deep resentment for men, but are taught to project this resentment outward as if its coming from somewhere outside of Islam, meanwhile the problem *is* Islam. That's how much of a sickness Islam is: suffer something, appropriate the cause/source as everyone/everything outside of Islam. That's why China declared it a mental illness: it absolutely is one.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Bingo! It is true: the Abrahamic god is essentially a misogynist god.
Don't get me wrong, misogyny may be baked into Abrahamic texts but it didn't form in a vacuum and is definitely not unique to Abrahamic society. And the voices of the new American libertarian right are not helping, and they tend to be irreligious. As do Incels.
Traditionalist religions are a symptom, not the cause.
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Hot take: every single Abrahamic religion, or religion or culture which requires subservient female gender roles, treats women poorly. Every single one.

Until we dispense with this outdated traditionalist idea, trading out religious labels won't help. Nor will removing religious labels from the equation.
(Looking at you, enamored with Jordan 'birth control started the downfall of western civilization' Peterson.)

I'd just like to add that the women who are treated poorly ultimately have to be the ones to stand up for themselves if they want the views and attitudes to change.

Religions who treat women as subservient or sex objects won't be changed from the outside.

Not all women object to be treated as an object. Until they decide they don't want it anymore, the views we find intolerable will continue.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
The hijab is a symptom (result/consequence) of the underlying problem of misogyny (covetousness of women by men) and a degrading (and degraded) solution to another underlying problem (that is) sexual degeneracy; which pervades not only Islam, but essentially all religious institutions.

It is clear that Muhammadans especially typically view women as first and foremost objects of/for sex and/or sexual gratification(s). As a result, sexually degenerated men (whose minds are constantly occupied by viewing women through the lens of sex) act out on these imaginations which manifests in the form of abuse. If a woman is raped in Islam, the fault is her own, and thus we find the genesis of the hijab: a symbol of 'modesty'.

However, the 'problem' is not with the women, but with the men who sexualize women. This is precisely what Muhammad represents: the sexualization of women and degrading them into a status/value of what they are "worth" to other men. As a result, women are "worth" more if they are young and/or virgin. Islam essentially uses women as a form of currency: given freely to jihadists as captives of war (which can be used as sex slaves) and men allowed marrying up to four women.

This treatment of women (of which the hijab is a symbol) is essentially why the planet is being destroyed: the feminine aspect is naturally nurturing (mother) and is required for life (womb). The patriarchal religious institutions of the world (which utilize male central figures as models/idols) systemically erodes the status of women away from the most essential part of creation to the most coveted and abused. Such is the nature of religion; and such is the nature of Islam especially.

Unfortunately, for many women (especially in Saudi Arabia and Iran), the hijab is not even a choice for them. Their male "guardians" enforce it along with the state, and many non-Muslim women in European countries are wearing one just to avoid being raped by a Muhammadan. The default perspective of Islam regarding a non-hijab woman is her being (like) a whore. As is obvious, the problem begins with how Islam instructs its male adherents to view women - no doubt directly pointing back to the central idol of Islam: Muhammad who was, no doubt, a sexually degenerated warlord that made a currency out of women.

This is essentially the central 'problem' on the planet, but it probably won't be for a few hundred years until humanity wakes up out of these idolatrous institutions and re-realizes the importance of the balance of genders and the unique role the women play in creation: no less important than mother nature herself (which is almost herself dead).

I would be willing to bet: restoring the status of women would likewise restore the planet. Of course the only way to prove this to be true is to actually restore the status of women, which I personally won't hold my breath for but it stands as it is: restore women, restore the planet. And the first place to look is: Islam.

It is a machine that preys on women.

Curious. How much cultural/historical knowledge do you have that what you are saying is true of the Islamic faith and the prophet?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
.............. I don't actually care about Muslims,
I could not respond to your every point, and had to select short phrases and sentences for response.
Your sentence (above) tends to show your real feelings for Muslim women, as well as Muslim men? Hmmmmm..... interesting.

............................The entire past few thousand years are full of patriarchy:
As they were for hundreds of thousands of years before, and are now, but that won't change when world control is shared equally by females, I think.

............ 'Islamophobia' which Muslims project outward and imbue all others as having.
Just a second......... surely it would be reasonable if anybody identifies with your posts as Islamophobic? You don't have to be a Muslim, I mean, even a follower of Zog could identify with that. I'm a Deist and I think they look just a tad Islamophobic, you know.

.......... "Belief" is not a virtue.
So what? Most folks on RF have beliefs, why, even the agnostics who don't know what to believe don't react to all others like this.

........One can respect ones right to "believe" what they wish, but with that does not come accept what they "believe". This is precisely what Islam does: full of "believers" condemning others for not "believing"
True, but I don't know of a Christian denomination that doesn't reckon that only its own followers will make heaven, etc.
Good legislation protects from extreme proselytizing, and that would include anti-religion selling...yeah?

........ Here in Canada, the Liberals are running with the platform 'Diversity is Our Strength' because Islam is divisive.
You're mixing up those two words, you know. I live in a cosmopolitan country and diversity is becoming a part of our culture here. Folks here can dislike whatever they like, but if they start hate speech or hate action then they need to get detained, arrested, charged, tried, convicted and punished. Simple as.....

.......It's actually the other way around: it is the religious institutions that are selling.
Yes.... but so are your posts to me.... you're trying to sell hatred of a huge religion....all of it. That's no good here or anywhere else.

........"Beliefs" can be (and often are) never actually grounded in reality, as is the case with Islam. It is anti-conscience.
So what do you expect to happen? You rant on and on yet do don't explain what you want humanity to do about Islam, or Christianity, etc....!!

...... And you ask for a picture of a woman! Lol
Yep...... which you clearly dared not choose.

........Muhammadan men who idolize (worship) Muhammad view women as sex objects,
The drakes in our garden view the ducks as sex objects! And the ducks pose for attention from their desired drakes! Reproduction is one huge demand of Nature, I'm afraid.

.
......Who the f*ck cares what women do or don't do?
And there it is!! One of my criteria of fanaticism is to look to see whether the objectives have been lost sight of.... :shrug:

...........Who the f*ck cares what they do or don't do, you?
Keep going........ sink yourself! :D

......What gives you the right to judge what women do or don't do with their body?
Nothing..... and so I don't... :)

..........Lol "research more into who women are" what is this? I don't research women, I have relationships with them.
Oh come off it! you already told us what you care about women, or not.

..........I dated a Muslim woman for many years, and my experience with her and what she shared about her past
...and so you decided from that experience that all Muslims are bad?

....That's why China declared it a mental illness: it absolutely is one.
And you want to tell us about how lots of folks are oppressed... and then you tell us what China thinks.


You're losing points now. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Please, your false accusations get a bit tiring. And it is extremely ironic that an article on wearing the hijab for modesty features a woman wearing a rather amazing amount of makeup in a picture that is far from modest.

False accusations? You made the claim women are forced to wear the hijab. I produced an article that contradicts that claim. Not my fault you don’t do your homework before you type.

“Like many women who wear the hijab, it was to become more spiritually connected to my religion, to actively practice Islam and not just to tick the Muslim box on a form.

Read more: Muslim Women On Why They Do Or Don't Wear A Hijab 2018 | Glamour UK
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Last year I saw a woman coming out of a tube station wearing what I call a black tent. She removed her head covering and put in in her shopping bag. She pulled off her tent and put that in the bag. Then, clad in jeans and t-shirt, she went on her way. Obviously she didn't wear that rubbish of her own free-will! Thankfully, her daughters will not be raised in the same way.

To say that some women wear one from choice is neither here nor there. People are brought up to believe in all sorts of nonsense.

No doubt people like OldBadger will call me "Islamophobic". Yes, I do fear a religion whose members stab people in the street and bomb trains. I also fear those "liberals" who stick their heads in the sand and pretend that there's no problem. He'd claim to be tolerant, but to tolerate evil is to encourage it. That's why we have laws against hate crime.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Actually, it is not the belief systems, it is the men who run them. For reasons I can not understand, men are insecure, so they childishly abuse the first weaker thing they find. And, women are not weak, we are just strong enough to take it from men, and thrive.

If the men did what their belief system says they should, it would be so much easier for women.
 

Remté

Active Member
Last year I saw a woman coming out of a tube station wearing what I call a black tent. She removed her head covering and put in in her shopping bag. She pulled off her tent and put that in the bag. Then, clad in jeans and t-shirt, she went on her way. Obviously she didn't wear that rubbish of her own free-will! .
Rubbish?

What if she was going to a job interview and thought she wouldn't get it that way?

It is ignorant to assume no woman wants to wear the traditional clothing. What is wrong with it after all? I think they are beautiful. And I'm not alone at that.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
False accusations? You made the claim women are forced to wear the hijab. I produced an article that contradicts that claim. Not my fault you don’t do your homework before you type.

“Like many women who wear the hijab, it was to become more spiritually connected to my religion, to actively practice Islam and not just to tick the Muslim box on a form.

Read more: Muslim Women On Why They Do Or Don't Wear A Hijab 2018 | Glamour UK
If you read and understood the post it was clear that I did not say or imply that all women were forced to do so. I even supported the women that preferred to wear it for their own reasons. You assumed something that was not in the post. As a result you made a false accusation. It would be wise to try to read what people write and not what you want them to have written.
 

Remté

Active Member
If you read and understood the post it was clear that I did not say or imply that all women were forced to do so. I even supported the women that preferred to wear it for their own reasons. You assumed something that was not in the post. As a result you made a false accusation. It would be wise to try to read what people write and not what you want them to have written.
You implied.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You implied.
No, at best you inferred. That I gave an example of when it was acceptable refutes your claim. Now it is a fact that in many Muslim societies there is undue pressure on women to wear the hijab to the point of being a law in some states. That is immoral. Enforcing ones religious views on others is immoral.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
If the hijab was freely chosen by women I would have no problem with it. The fact is that it is not. It is forced on them and is a sign of sexual inequality since there is no similar pressure put on men to wear a garment to cover themselves up.


THIS IS THE POST IM FOCUSING ON. NOTHING HERE WAS STATED THAT IT WAS A CHOICE YOU CLEARLY SAID IN THE ABOVE THAT IT IS FORCED. THAT IS WHY I POSTED THE LINK OF THE MUSLIM WOMEN AND THEIR TESTIMONY ON WHY THEY CHOOSE TO WEAR HIJAB. STOP BEING A LOAR AND ACTUALLY DEFEND THE ABOVE NONSENSE BECAUSE WHAT I GAVE YOU CONTRADICTED THE ABOVE.
 

Remté

Active Member
No, at best you inferred. That I gave an example of when it was acceptable refutes your claim. Now it is a fact that in many Muslim societies there is undue pressure on women to wear the hijab to the point of being a law in some states. That is immoral. Enforcing ones religious views on others is immoral.
You said:

If the hijab was freely chosen by women I would have no problem with it. The fact is that it is not. It is forced on them and is a sign of sexual inequality since there is no similar pressure put on men to wear a garment to cover themselves up. If a women should be shamed for not covering her face the same should apply to men.

Then you said you didn't imply.

To involve by logical necessity; entail: Life implies growth and death. v. To express or indicate indirectly: His tone implied disapproval. See Synonyms at suggest. See Usage Note at infer. v. Obsolete To entangle.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
If the hijab was freely chosen by women I would have no problem with it. The fact is that it is not. It is forced on them and is a sign of sexual inequality since there is no similar pressure put on men to wear a garment to cover themselves up. If a women should be shamed for not covering her face the same should apply to men.

I heard a few Imaams on this subject. They all said something like:
`The hijab is needed for the women, because we men have no control over our sexual desires, so it is for their own safety`

They seem to think that their argument is a friendly gesture towards the women, and seem to be totally unaware of the absurdity of their claim.
As long as such weak men, not able to control their sexual violence, are in control of Islam, there will be no change.
All this makes it apparent why they rather not have women in control (high positions); Islam would crumble.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
THIS IS THE POST IM FOCUSING ON. NOTHING HERE WAS STATED THAT IT WAS A CHOICE YOU CLEARLY SAID IN THE ABOVE THAT IT IS FORCED. THAT IS WHY I POSTED THE LINK OF THE MUSLIM WOMEN AND THEIR TESTIMONY ON WHY THEY CHOOSE TO WEAR HIJAB. STOP BEING A LOAR AND ACTUALLY DEFEND THE ABOVE NONSENSE BECAUSE WHAT I GAVE YOU CONTRADICTED THE ABOVE.
You are right. I did leave out a line I meant to include. It is still correct as written and you inferred what was not implied.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
The hijab is a symptom (result/consequence) of the underlying problem of misogyny (covetousness of women by men) and a degrading (and degraded) solution to another underlying problem (that is) sexual degeneracy; which pervades not only Islam, but essentially all religious institutions.

It is clear that Muhammadans especially typically view women as first and foremost objects of/for sex and/or sexual gratification(s). As a result, sexually degenerated men (whose minds are constantly occupied by viewing women through the lens of sex) act out on these imaginations which manifests in the form of abuse. If a woman is raped in Islam, the fault is her own, and thus we find the genesis of the hijab: a symbol of 'modesty'.

However, the 'problem' is not with the women, but with the men who sexualize women. This is precisely what Muhammad represents: the sexualization of women and degrading them into a status/value of what they are "worth" to other men. As a result, women are "worth" more if they are young and/or virgin. Islam essentially uses women as a form of currency: given freely to jihadists as captives of war (which can be used as sex slaves) and men allowed marrying up to four women.

This treatment of women (of which the hijab is a symbol) is essentially why the planet is being destroyed: the feminine aspect is naturally nurturing (mother) and is required for life (womb). The patriarchal religious institutions of the world (which utilize male central figures as models/idols) systemically erodes the status of women away from the most essential part of creation to the most coveted and abused. Such is the nature of religion; and such is the nature of Islam especially.

Unfortunately, for many women (especially in Saudi Arabia and Iran), the hijab is not even a choice for them. Their male "guardians" enforce it along with the state, and many non-Muslim women in European countries are wearing one just to avoid being raped by a Muhammadan. The default perspective of Islam regarding a non-hijab woman is her being (like) a whore. As is obvious, the problem begins with how Islam instructs its male adherents to view women - no doubt directly pointing back to the central idol of Islam: Muhammad who was, no doubt, a sexually degenerated warlord that made a currency out of women.

This is essentially the central 'problem' on the planet, but it probably won't be for a few hundred years until humanity wakes up out of these idolatrous institutions and re-realizes the importance of the balance of genders and the unique role the women play in creation: no less important than mother nature herself (which is almost herself dead).

I would be willing to bet: restoring the status of women would likewise restore the planet. Of course the only way to prove this to be true is to actually restore the status of women, which I personally won't hold my breath for but it stands as it is: restore women, restore the planet. And the first place to look is: Islam.

It is a machine that preys on women.

Perfectly said. I hope all the Muslims read this. Because I don't hear Muslims say what you say.
Only when Muslims who claim to be "woman friendly" speak out and stop their Imaams from their absurdity this can change.
When Muslims keep adoring Imaams who are "woman unfriendly", they won't even think they are wrong
(3 out of 3 Imaams I heard on this subject said something like "we Muslim men don't control our sexual desire, so women should cover")
 
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