The Hijab Problem

[Subduction Zone]

I heard a few Imaams on this subject. They all said something like:
`The hijab is needed for the women, because we men have no control over our sexual desires, so it is for their own safety`

They seem to think that their argument is a friendly gesture towards the women, and seem to be totally unaware of the absurdity of their claim.
As long as such weak men, not able to control their sexual violence, are in control of Islam, there will be no change.
All this makes it apparent why they rather not have women in control (high positions); Islam would crumble.

Yes, it is a blame the victim mentality. The West is not totally free of it either. A man is free to walk outside without a shirt on, but a topless woman is forbidden in many areas.

 

[Remté]

Correct, I did leave out a line that I meant to include. But you did infer. The logical fallacy was a Hasty Generalization. It is best to ask when unsure.

I didn't say anything but that you implied.

 

[Remté]

I heard a few Imaams on this subject. They all said something like:
`The hijab is needed for the women, because we men have no control over our sexual desires, so it is for their own safety`.

Who said this?

 

[Remté]

Perfectly said. I hope all the Muslims read this. Because I don't hear Muslims say what you say.
Only when Muslims who claim to be "woman friendly" speak out and stop their Imaams from their absurdity this can change.
When Muslims keep adoring Imaams who are "woman unfriendly", they won't even think they are wrong
(3 out of 3 Imaams I heard on this subject said something like "we Muslim men don't control our sexual desire, so women should cover")

That you don't hear Muslims say that makes sense. Muslims aren't all completely clueless of their own religion.

3 Imaams?

 

[stvdv]

Please, your false accusations get a bit tiring. And it is extremely ironic that an article on wearing the hijab for modesty features a woman wearing a rather amazing amount of makeup in a picture that is far from modest.

False accusations? You made the claim women are forced to wear the hijab. I produced an article that contradicts that claim. Not my fault you don’t do your homework before you type.
“Like many women who wear the hijab, it was to become more spiritually connected to my religion, to actively practice Islam and not just to tick the Muslim box on a form.

Read more: Muslim Women On Why They Do Or Don't Wear A Hijab 2018 | Glamour UK

4 women making a claim in England is "contradicting @Subduction Zone claim"?
Are you serious? What about the 1000 million other Muslims in Muslim countries?
Seems to me you compare apple to pears. Seems to me just some Muslim propaganda
Muslims tend to "not want to see Islam flaws" and fabricating all kind of funny ways out.

 

[stvdv]

Who said this?

Google it and you will find out. I have posted on RF a few of these youtubes long time ago.
I am not interested to search on this again and listen again to their "untruth" about women.
1+1=2. Once it has been established as a fact, I don't keep on proving it
(I think it took me about 5 min. to find these youtube at that time; so you should be able too also)

 

[icehorse]

I have no doubt we'd find a link. Poverty and security are rarely found together, and having literate and educated women tends to go a very long way in reducing poverty, which reduces crime.

@ADigitalArtist

Which raises the question: Why is so much of the Islamic world impoverished? (And please, resist the urge to blame it on the West.)

It also raises the question: Why do Western women find it so difficult to criticize Islam?

 

[icehorse]

Hot take: every single Abrahamic religion, or religion or culture which requires subservient female gender roles, treats women poorly. Every single one.

Until we dispense with this outdated traditionalist idea, trading out religious labels won't help. Nor will removing religious labels from the equation.
(Looking at you, enamored with Jordan 'birth control started the downfall of western civilization' Peterson.)

Again with the "two wrongs make it right" argument?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@ADigitalArtist

Which raises the question: Why is so much of the Islamic world impoverished? (And please, resist the urge to blame it on the West.)

It also raises the question: Why do Western women find it so difficult to criticize Islam?

Why blame islam for it when clearly its endemic to multiple faiths and locations that dont coincide with your pinpointing of islam?

Again with the "two wrongs make it right" argument?

More like stop focusing on symptoms and ignoring the overall problem.

 

[Remté]

4 women making a claim in England is "contradicting @Subduction Zone claim"?
Are you serious? What about the 1000 million other Muslims in Muslim countries?
Seems to me you compare apple to pears. Seems to me just some Muslim propaganda
Muslims tend to "not want to see Islam flaws" and fabricating all kind of funny ways out.

Why don't you speak to Muslim women? Though if you use this same tone of voice they might become confused. But if you ask politely they will probably tell you their reasons.

 

[Remté]

@ADigitalArtist

Which raises the question: Why is so much of the Islamic world impoverished?

Examples? The Middle East for one has a rather low levels of it with the exceptions of Syria and Yemen.

Me, I'd love to go to Dubai

 

[stvdv]

Yes, it is a blame the victim mentality. The West is not totally free of it either. A man is free to walk outside without a shirt on, but a topless woman is forbidden in many areas.

Here you make a very important point "blame the victim mentality".

This is something narcissists are known for. The West is full of it (narcissists using these tactics). In the West men don't get away with "treating women bad" as easy as in the Middle East (except D.T with his classic `GT@TP). But in other areas this narcissistic habit is all over in the West.

So I do not only see the "flaws in Islam", I also see/admit Western flaws. When Muslims let go "The Koran is flawless" they can admit their flaws too.

2 big problems and untruths:
a) "blame the victim mentality"
b) "The Koran is flawless"

 

[Remté]

Here you make a very important point "blame the victim mentality".

This is something narcissists are known for. The West is full of it (narcissists using these tactics). In the West men don't get away with "treating women bad" as easy as in the Middle East (except D.T with his classic `GT@TP). But in other areas this narcissistic habit is all over in the West.

So I do not only see the "flaws in Islam", I also see/admit Western flaws. When Muslims let go "The Koran is flawless" they can admit their flaws too.

2 big problems and untruths:
a) "blame the victim mentality"
b) "The Koran is flawless"

What's the problem with the Quran you have?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which raises the question: Why is so much of the Islamic world impoverished? (And please, resist the urge to blame it on the West.)

They've pretty much shunned education since the Islamic Revolution, and about half the population is severely oppressed.
And, truly, some blame does fall on the West, from drawing up borders after WWI to supporting and propping up extremist groups, the West (and certainly the former Soviet Union) does have some blame to accept.

It also raises the question: Why do Western women find it so difficult to criticize Islam?

It seems to be Westerners in general. A pretty good example is when Ben Affleck and Sam Harris were on Real Time, and though the interview was between Bill and Sam, Ben took it upon himself to interject (while the panel is otherwise supposed to remain silent for the interview) and to criticize Harris' views on Islam. And Ben's position, that it's a small number of extremists compared to the rest, is a very common Liberal position. And there they leave it, ignoring what the Quran does factually state and how that translates to the human rights abuses we see in the Islamic world.
And it makes no sense, at all, as they are usually very gung ho about attacking Christianity even if their points are invalid.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn't say anything but that you implied.

And since there was no implication that logical conclusion is that you made the error of inferring something that was not implied.

 

[Remté]

And since there was no implication that logical conclusion is that you made the error of inferring something that was not implied.

It was implied. I quoted you the definition of imply. You can keep saying it wasn't implied and it is for your advantage to say you didn't mean to imply, but for any common reader your post does imply.

 

[stvdv]

Why don't you speak to Muslim women? Though if you use this same tone of voice they might become confused. But if you ask politely they will probably tell you their reasons.

I love Muslim women (and I even like them better when they wear the hijab; I have an hijab fetish maybe).

One Muslim women (friend of mine) educated me on this subject. When I told her "Islam seems quite good to me", she almost bit of my head. She lived in Iran for many decades, so she knows everything about Iran and how bad many women are treated there. She was not free to choose hijab, she was abused by her husband (and not the only one being abused). She had no rights and because she was rebellious her husband wanted to kill her, so she had to escape from Iran and came to Holland.

Of course this is only 1 incident. But at least it is from someone who lived there and was experiencing it herself. I trust her account, and that of her daughter. Of course that all happened like 15 years ago, maybe now the Middle East is as "woman friendly" as the West. But I do know that humans don't tend to change easily, so I have to "see it, before I believe it"

So I started off very innocent "thinking Islam was all good", but a Muslim woman educated me on "all the flaws in Islam". I don't say Islam is bad, I only say "Muslims should be honest and address the flaws in Islam". At least admit their flaws. Then we can talk about all the good things in Islam.

I will be the last to talk bad about Islam. My Master talks very high about Islam. But He also educates people saying:
a) man should follow God
b) woman should follow husband
c) husband should make sure his wife never cries
d) woman should not have to many desires

I think most men fail miserably in point a) + c). So obviously no woman will ever be interested in following such a man [failing point c)]
I would love to follow someone who takes really good care of me; making sure I never cry.

Another point my Master stresses "Never lie" and "Act when you see something is wrong/bad, otherwise you are an accomplish".

 

[stvdv]

What's the problem with the Quran you have?

I have no problem with the Koran. The problem starts when people pretend that the Koran is flawless and start acting on it, hurting others.

 

[Remté]

They've pretty much shunned education since the Islamic Revolution,

How have they shunned education? that's a very vague statement.

And there they leave it, ignoring what the Quran does factually state and how that translates to the human rights abuses we see in the Islamc world..

What is it you think the Quran factually states and how does it translate to human rights abuses in the Islamic worl?

 

[Remté]

I have no problem with the Koran. The problem starts when people pretend that the Koran is flawless and start acting on it, hurting others.

What's the flaw?