The Hijab Problem

[stvdv]

What's the flaw?

Let me reverse it: Can you tell me, let's say, 3 flaws in Islam?

 

[Remté]

I love Muslim women (and I even like them better when they wear the hijab; I have an hijab fetish maybe).

One Muslim women (friend of mine) educated me on this subject. When I told her "Islam seems quite good to me", she almost bit of my head. She lived in Iran for many decades, so she knows everything about Iran and how bad many women are treated there. She was not free to choose hijab, she was abused by her husband (and not the only one being abused). She had no rights and because she was rebellious her husband wanted to kill her, so she had to escape from Iran and came to Holland.

Of course this is only 1 incident. But at least it is from someone who lived there and was experiencing it herself. I trust her account, and that of her daughter. Of course that all happened like 15 years ago, maybe now the Middle East is as "woman friendly" as the West. But I do know that humans don't tend to change easily, so I have to "see it, before I believe it"

So I started off very innocent "thinking Islam was all good", but a Muslim woman educated me on "all the flaws in Islam". I don't say Islam is bad, I only say "Muslims should be honest and address the flaws in Islam". At least admit their flaws. Then we can talk about all the good things in Islam.

I will be the last to talk bad about Islam. My Master talks very high about Islam. But He also educates people saying:
a) man should follow God
b) woman should follow husband
c) husband should make sure his wife never cries
d) woman should not have to many desires

I think most men fail miserably in point a) + c). So obviously no woman will ever be interested in following such a man [failing point c)]
I would love to follow someone who takes really good care of me; making sure I never cry.

Another point my Master stresses "Never lie" and "Act when you see something is wrong/bad, otherwise you are an accomplish".

I think you are unnecessarily mixing religion and culture.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It was implied. I quoted you the definition of imply. You can keep saying it wasn't implied and it is for your advantage to say you didn't mean to imply, but for any common reader your post does imply.

Wrong, for someone to imply something it must be the intention of the person writing the post. You made an error. You inferred something that was not implied.

 

[Remté]

Let me reverse it: Can you tell me, let's say, 3 flaws in Islam?

I spoke of the Quran. I can't name you 3 flaws in Islam because Islam is not the same everywhere for everyone and at all times.

 

[Remté]

Wrong, for someone to imply something it must be the intention of the person writing the post. You made an error. You inferred something that was not implied.

I need not be an intention.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How have they shunned education? that's a very vague statement.

Not really. Their academics and intellectuals often come to the West, they don't produce many books, about half of the population can't get an education, and they have no shortage of extremist groups to enforce such things.

What is it you think the Quran factually states and how does it translate to human rights abuses in the Islamic worl?

The Quran does instruct Muslims to read the Tanakh and New Testament, and they way ISIS operated reads like it was taken from the pages of the OT. Women are mandated to wear various sorts of clothing to cover themselves up, including the niqab and the even further dehumanizing burka. Homosexuals are executed. Education is not considered a right. Slavery is still present and alive. Women are generally blamed (and sometimes executed) for being raped. Freedom of speech and religion do not exist, and indeed in Saudi Arabia atheism is defined as a terrorist organization. It's so bad they'll even travel abroad to slaughter those who offend their religious sensibilities.
And even during their Golden Age, the Caliphate was indeed spread by the sword and much blood shed. All religions but Christianity and Judaism were banned (and even members of those groups were taxed). They were an epicenter of learning then, but much of their empire was built by slave labor (and the Abrahamic texts have always condoned and endorsed slavery, and not once did any of them condemn it).

 

[stvdv]

I think you are unnecessarily mixing religion and culture.

I know "I do not mix religion and culture". I just address the shortcomings in Islam/Koran.

 

[stvdv]

I spoke of the Quran. I can't name you 3 flaws in Islam because Islam is not the same everywhere for everyone and at all times.

So you say Islam has nothing to do with Koran (not 1 thing in common for all)? No need to answer that, I rather stick to the point

Okay, can you name 3 flaws in Koran?

 

[icehorse]

On the question of poverty:

Why blame islam for it when clearly its endemic to multiple faiths and locations that dont coincide with your pinpointing of islam?

Of course. But apart from those Muslim majority countries that stumbled into having oil, how many are not impoverished? A few, perhaps Malaysia, but not many.
==

On the "two wrongs make it right":

More like stop focusing on symptoms and ignoring the overall problem.

The problem of misogyny has many sources. How about we divide and conquer? One of those sources is Islam. Why can't we put some of our efforts into attacking that source?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I need not be an intention.

Then you appear to have your own definition.

 

[Remté]

Not really. Their academics and intellectuals often come to the West, they don't produce many books, about half of the population can't get an education, and they have no shortage of extremist groups to enforce such things.

That's still very vague. So you haven't come by books that interest you written by Muslims from the Muddle East?

The Quran does instruct Muslims to read the Tanakh and New Testament,

Where?

Women are mandated to wear various sorts of clothing to cover themselves up, including the niqab and the even further dehumanizing burka.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

Homosexuals are executed.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

Education is not considered a right.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

Slavery is still present and alive.

Source? Nothing to do with the Quran.

Women are generally blamed (and sometimes executed) for being raped.

Source? Nothing to do with the Quran.

Freedom of speech and religion do not exist, and indeed in Saudi Arabia atheism is defined as a terrorist organization.

Sources? Nothing to do with the Quran.

It's so bad they'll even travel abroad to slaughter those who offend their religious sensibilities.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

 

[icehorse]

Examples? The Middle East for one has a rather low levels of it with the exceptions of Syria and Yemen.

Me, I'd love to go to Dubai
View attachment 26858

Really? Of course we all know that through no accomplishments of their own, some Muslim majority countries stumbled into having oil. How about the rest of the Muslim majority countries?

 

[Remté]

Then you appear to have your own definition.

No. It's Merriam-Webster

"1obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE 2: to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statementrights imply obligations 3: to contain potentially 4: to express indirectly "

 

[Remté]

Really? Of course we all know that through no accomplishments of their own, some Muslim majority countries stumbled into having oil. How about the rest of the Muslim majority countries?

That's all very vague. I asked for examples.

 

[icehorse]

They've pretty much shunned education since the Islamic Revolution, and about half the population is severely oppressed.
And, truly, some blame does fall on the West, from drawing up borders after WWI to supporting and propping up extremist groups, the West (and certainly the former Soviet Union) does have some blame to accept.

And, the nature of Islam is to claim that all a person needs to know can be found in Islamic scripture. Of course not all Muslims claim that, but for the last 1000 years many, many have.

==

On why women in the west don't criticize Islamic misogyny:

It seems to be Westerners in general.

agreed.

 

[icehorse]

That's all very vague. I asked for examples.

I just gave you examples. Again, I'm happy to grant you that the Muslim majority countries that stumbled into having oil are not impoverished. That's not much of an accomplishment. How about the rest of them? How about those MM countries that were not blessed with oil? Why are they so impoverished?

 

[Subduction Zone]

No. It's Merriam-Webster

"1obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE 2: to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statementrights imply obligations 3: to contain potentially 4: to express indirectly "

I would say that it fails by that definition. Which again is why you inferred. At best you would have to go to the rather weak definition number 3, but that definition is so weak and general as to make the term rather useless.

 

[Remté]

I would say that it fails by that definition. Which again is why you inferred. At best you would have to go to the rather weak definition number 3, but that definition is so weak and general as to make the term rather useless.

You don't like the definition. I hope we're done with that.

 

[Remté]

I just gave you examples. Again, I'm happy to grant you that the Muslim majority countries that stumbled into having oil are not impoverished. That's not much of an accomplishment. How about the rest of them? How about those MM countries that were not blessed with oil? Why are they so impoverished?

You didn't. You made another vague comment that has no substance in it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's still very vague. So you haven't come by books that interest you written by Muslims from the Muddle East?

Where?

Nothing to do with the Quran.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

Source? Nothing to do with the Quran.

Source? Nothing to do with the Quran.

Sources? Nothing to do with the Quran.

Nothing to do with the Quran.

You apparently don't even know the Bible that well. The Abrahamic texts demand death for apostasy, they forbid the worship of other gods, the demand women be covered up, they instruct adherents to not mingle with non-adherents, and, yes, death to the infidels is very present in the Quran. The Quran, at least, gives us some sort of environmental ethic and concern for non-human animals that is lacking in the other texts.
As for books, multiple Muslim majority countries combined produce less books than single countries who are much smaller, they have fewer public libraries, and illiteracy is still pretty high in some areas. And then, where they are highly literate and writing books, censorship laws put up a very large obstacle for publishing.