The Garden of good and evil

[Muffled]

If there is nothing evil about it, I do not care if it is sin or not, its not evil, it should be punished. If God wants to punish people for moving back their forskin that is Gods problem.

I believe you will find it is better for your health for God not to consider you a problem.

 

[Muffled]

No, the mythical Christian "god" told them not to eat the fruit, and as usual blew into a rage and punished both Adam and Eve.

Note about that - Isn't it strange how an "all knowing" "god" could not find Adam and Eve in the Garden, nor did he know about what they had done?

Hmm...

I believe that is a characterization that you invented and does not happen very often in the Bible so one may not call it usual.

I believe God does not have any problem finding them so the question is rhetorical.

I believe God knows all we have done or thought so again the question is rhetorical.

 

[viole]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

not enough attention to logical consistency from the ones who made up the story?

Ciao

- viole

 

[syo]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

Simple. God said ''don't eat''. Isn't it clear?

 

[coconut theology]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

Malo. You have a confusion on the word "knowing". It speaks about "experience", or "experiential" (Hebrew H3045, same word for knowing one's wife in marriage; Genesis 4:1)). It is not that Adam and Eve did not know (understand) what evil was. It was that they had not personal experience of what evil was then. God had warned them of the fallen angel previously.

I would cease listening to 'atheists' (those who are "without God", atheoi, in the world, Ephesians 2:12) if you want to understand what scripture says, and go to the scripture itself (KJB) and ask the Author of its inspiration for understanding.

For instance, if I really want to understand "Dr. Suess's Cat in the Hat", I do not ask the librarian, sales clerk, a janitor, or some random 'dude' who doesn't believe the message in "Cat in the Hat", nor believe in its author to even exist, but I instead read the actual material and ask the Author about its contents. Everything else is hearsay and at best 'second hand' through a filtered bias.

 

[viole]

it was a test

Quality tests seem to have failed miserable after the first attempt.
Back to creators school, I guess.

ciao

- viole

 

[Faithofchristian]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

Maybe you should read about Adam and Eve again..
What did Adam and Eve actually do?
That caused God to do what he did?
Find the cause and then you will find your answer.

 

[ChristineM]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

That's god for ya. Make something, it goes wrong, blame the something

 

[Ancient Soul]

No, the mythical Christian "god" told them not to eat the fruit, and as usual blew into a rage and punished both Adam and Eve.

Note about that - Isn't it strange how an "all knowing" "god" could not find Adam and Eve in the Garden, nor did he know about what they had done?

Hmm...

I believe that is a characterization that you invented and does not happen very often in the Bible so one may not call it usual.

I believe God does not have any problem finding them so the question is rhetorical.

I believe God knows all we have done or thought so again the question is rhetorical.

You clearly have never read the entire bible, or even the full Genesis myth.

If you are here to discuss and debate your mythology, you really need to become more knowledgeable about it.

Or is this just a tactic of avoidance you use to AVOID any questions you don't want to face.

 

[Riders]

... and did you believe them??? I hope not. I see, I am too late. You believed them.
I suggest you stop listening to Atheists' take on the Bible. They evidently know nothing about it. This is an example.
The Bible never ever ever nowhere e v e r said... nowhere ever, that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

They did not know they were naked before the tree of knowledge, the reason its called Tree ofKnowledge is when you eat from it you know things you did not know before this makes them innocent. Afterwards they knew pain, women started giving birth in pain, and knew what it was like to feel pain from thorns in the foot from working in the gardens I say it makes them pretty innocent yea!

So the fact that God even put this Tree of Knowledge out there to mess them up makes him a sad pathetic God.

 

[coconut theology]

That's god for ya. Make something, it goes wrong, blame the something

Called freedom of choice in love. God is love.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Do you know what a merism is? If you do not, look it up.

Could you elaborate on how we use Merism to the story of the Garden of Eden?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

• I'm sure that this will not make a difference in your argument against God's justice, BUT:
  • Genesis, chapter 2 says:
    • 15. The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
    • 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
    • 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
• In other words, you don't have your story straight. Adam was told don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He was NOT told to refrain from eating from the tree of life.
• Next: I'm guessing that you've never had kids of your own and, probably never been left in charge of anyone else's kids. I say that because it seems to me that you would have serious difficulty teaching the littlest kids the difference between: "Yes, you may do this" and "No, you may not do that." You wouldn't know how to teach that to a little kid who doesn't know the meaning of the words: "No" and "don't do that".
• Your argument against God's justice is that it's not fair for Him to punish anybody who doesn't know what "No" and "Don't do that" mean, right?
• Now, there are things that a parent who loves and cares for their children will tell their kid(s) that they can do and there are things that the parent will tell their kid(s) that they cannot do. A person who doesn't begin to teach their kid(s) the difference between "yes" and "no"; "do" and "don't"; "you may" and "you may not", should not have children nor be left in charge of children.
• In the story about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, there was one rule, ... just one. It wasn't a complicated rule. "Don't eat the fruit from that tree."
  
• A rule is meaningless if there are no consequences for breaking the rule and no benefit or reward for obeying the rule.
• The benefit/reward for obeying the rule was "Adam and Eve could continue to enjoy life in the Garden."
• The consequence(s) for breaking the rule was "death".
• Just one rule, and they broke it. And as a consequence, you're in Texas and confused, when you could have been living in the Garden of Eden.
• And there's something else that the story explains. Wanna know what that is?

Your ignoring the fact that Adam and Eve didn't understand the consequences of their action because they weren't created with the sense of right and wrong. This is stated in Genesis 3:22 when God says " and the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" That sentence implies man didn't know good and evil before taking of the fruit.

So God was asking too much from them and then proceeds to punish adam and eve. Don't forget if you believe in original sin were guilty of their mistakes too. Such a loving compassionate god.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

... and did you believe them??? I hope not. I see, I am too late. You believed them.
I suggest you stop listening to Atheists' take on the Bible. They evidently know nothing about it. This is an example.
The Bible never ever ever nowhere e v e r said... nowhere ever, that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

You know a lot of Atheists were Christians before and studied the bible.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Interpretations can vary between doctrines between Christian Churches, but the structure of that sentence implies that Man didn't know Good and Evil before the fruit.

 

[QuestioningMind]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

Yeah, I've always thought that in this case God is like a negligent parent who blames their toddler for running out into traffic. Just because you told your 2 year old not to run out into the street doesn't mean that you don't still have a responsibility to keep a close eye on them.

 

[Thief]

Quality tests seem to have failed miserable after the first attempt.
Back to creators school, I guess.

ciao

- viole

nay.....that test of forbidden fruit was not a fail

it just seems that way for loss of the garden

but of course....the garden was not the norm
that was a petri dish dealt for the alteration of Man

the test demonstrated the alteration took hold
and the garden....having served it's purpose.....was dismantled

 

[coconut theology]

Yeah, I've always thought that in this case God is like a negligent parent who blames their toddler for running out into traffic. Just because you told your 2 year old not to run out into the street doesn't mean that you don't still have a responsibility to keep a close eye on them.

The issue with your analogy is comparing the ignorant (without knowledge) to someone like Adam/Eve who had knowledge. Adam was created straight from the hand of God with much intelligence, and even given warning of disobedience and of the enemy that existed, and yet ate of the fruit with knowledge of the consequences.

Consider this video:

God is love. God will not force His intelligent creation to continually obey Him. There is a difference between ignorance and presumption in scripture:

OT:

Num 15:22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
Num 15:23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
Num 15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.​

NT:

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
​

Thus Jesus would not presume upon His Father to save Him by deliberately with full knowledge of going against His will:

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
​

It is like a person 'playing' Russian Roulette, with a real loaded gun with one round in a 6 round chamber.

Yet, what is missed in all this, is that God still intervened for Adam's (and our) sake's, because Adam had not yet the fullness of understanding of the character of God's love, as Lucifer had. Adam had been deceived (though not in the same way as was Eve):

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
​

Thus, in Adam, all were deceived, except Jesus Christ. Yet, even so, it is not as if God just abandoned us to death. No, the plan of redemption, which had been hid with God before all things were created, was put into action, and the eternal covenant between the Father and the Son, as witnessed by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, was carried out, and is even now being carried out, and is almost finished.

 

[coconut theology]

You know a lot of Atheists were Christians before and studied the bible.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Interpretations can vary between doctrines between Christian Churches, but the structure of that sentence implies that Man didn't know Good and Evil before the fruit.

As stated, there is a difference between knowledge and the experiential knowing.

I can have knowledge of the height of the president of the US. I can have knowledge of the president of the US. name, family, skin colour, hair colour, eye colour, birthdate, and many other things, like credit score, historical acheivements, etc. Yet, I can have all of that knowledge, and yet not "know" the man personally, experientially, having never actually met the president of the US in person, or directly spoken with him.

So likewise with 'evil'. I can somewhat understanding of what will happen if I jump in front of a speeding semi-rig (moving truck), and yet not "know" experientially what that is like having never actually done so, to "know" the pain of broken bones, internal bleeding, damaged organs etc, yet I could logically deduce the outcome without that experience.

As stated, the word "know" in that verse means experientially, as in Genesis 4:1.

God had warned Adam and so also Eve (by Adam) about the consequences of eating (Genesis 2:17), and of the enemy that existed.

 

[ChristineM]

Called freedom of choice in love. God is love.

I think, reading the bible that its more a case of the abrahamic god getting it wrong, trying to put his error right by committing genocide (because he loves his wrong creation) and getting it wrong again, and again.

 

[Nimos]

So I was listening to the Atheists radio show on youtube again with Matt and one of the other ones I forget the names. Anyways they brought up a fact I never thought about.The bible says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate from the tree of life.

How can God hold them responsible for doing evil when they did not know what evil was? Why did God punish them ????It is not a fair and just God.God was wrong.

That is actually something I have been wondering about for a long time.

Especially I don't really think, that you would be able to know right from wrong, if you do not know the difference between what is meant with good and evil. Which might sound weird as I don't believe good and evil exists, in a biblical sense as it was given to us by God.

So my issue is from a rational point of view.

What reason would Eve have to assume that the snake was lying or trying to do something evil?
How would she have been able to know the difference between something God (Good) said and that of the snake (Evil), when she doesn't know the difference?

I don't think that is possible.