The fall of man; Free will

[Eliot Wild]

Unfortunately, if someone has proof, whether they send proof to the judge or not, isn't up to them.

Good answer. That is so true. I can only hope the unseen hand moving the distant stars and the sighing wind might reach down and cause the Judge to dismiss my case with prejudice.

I don't think I'm gonna count on that though.

 

[Willamena]

One Christian explained it to me this way: "sin" is not an evil, but an inevitable state we are in because of free will; "the fall" is not a punishment, but a consequence of the rise of that state; and the myth describes what is, not what could'a/should'a/would'a been had we or "God" done things differently. Not everyone who invests in the story takes it literally.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Good answer. That is so true. I can only hope the unseen hand moving the distant stars and the sighing wind might reach down and cause the Judge to dismiss my case with prejudice.

I don't think I'm gonna count on that though.

You should pray harder, although that's not up to you either. I say go with the flow and don't worry about it. Just assume there's a good bj in your future that is destined to happen. Focus on the good deterministic events.

 

[jml03]

If someone can prove we do not have freewill, I wish they'd please send their proof to Warren District Court Judge Sam Potter so he will let me out of my most recent speeding ticket . . . I had no choice but to speed, your Honor, I am merely the haphazard consequence of a cause-and-effect universe run amok.

Excellent! Sorry about the ticket though. If the Judge had no freewill, he'd be forced to find you guilty though. Or would he? Which way would his non-freewill force him to go?

 

[Eliot Wild]

Excellent! Sorry about the ticket though. If the Judge had no freewill, he'd be forced to find you guilty though. Or would he? Which way would his non-freewill force him to go?

I'm guessing that is up to Mrs. Potter . . . If the Judge gets lucky the night before, maybe the EFFECT from such a CAUSE will be that he is in a good mood on my courtdate and thereby more willing to dismiss my case. Viola' . . . deterministic cause and effect works in my favor.

If, on the other hand, Mrs. Potter has a headache the night before my Court appearance and then the Judge cuts himself shaving and then gets cutoff in traffic on his way to the courthouse and all these uncontrollable factors accumulate to create a determined cause that places me in Traffic School . . . I'm just going to tell the Police Officer who teaches the class, "hey, I had no choice but to speed, Mr. Officer, I am just the haphazard consequence of a cause-and-effect universe run amok."

So it goes.

 

[Willamena]

This is moot. Without free will, there is no need for the judge, the courtroom and the fine, since no infractions can take place.

 

[jml03]

This is moot. Without free will, there is no need for the judge, the courtroom and the fine, since no infractions can take place.

And would we be just like a mindless, zombie-like society?

 

[PolyHedral]

Does a lack of free will mean that your actions can't be based on past experience?

 

[Eliot Wild]

This is moot. Without free will, there is no need for the judge, the courtroom and the fine, since no infractions can take place.

I like your argument.

What are you doing on July 22, at 9:00 a.m.? And would you be willing to represent me in a case pending before Warren District Court in Bowling Green, Kentucky?

 

[Willamena]

And would we be just like a mindless, zombie-like society?

That depends on your image of "mind". If complete participation in the deterministic world includes thought, choice and decision, then the world goes merrily on just as it is. The difference is that it's not YOU making thoughts, choices and decisions. It's determined for you, as a part of the world.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And would we be just like a mindless, zombie-like society?

This description certainly seems quite apt.

 

[Willamena]

To clarify, I'm saying all that would be "lost" would be something you never really had: responsibility. But then, there goes the judge, who would you hold responsible, and the courtroom by which you would be found responsible, and the fine, the owning up to your responsibility.

 

[Skwim]

If someone can prove we do not have freewill, I wish they'd please send their proof to Warren District Court Judge Sam Potter so he will let me out of my most recent speeding ticket . . . I had no choice but to speed, your Honor, I am merely the haphazard consequence of a cause-and-effect universe run amok.

I would but I have no choice but not to. Seriously though. Even though everything we do is determined---the only alternative is that it happens by utter chance (a random occurrence)---our minds are so constructed (operate deterministically) that they ignore the fact and operate so as to regard our actions as voluntary. The judge has no more discretion in his actions as you did in speeding. He does, as you did, because he can/could do no differently. Does this give lie to the concept of just punishment? Of course it does, but we can't help that we regard it otherwise.

 

[waitasec]

Do you think it's possible to expect too much from myths?
I think the onus is on the reader.

I am merely only trying to point out the irreconcilable contradiction of the fundamental foundation of the idea of salvation...our freedom of will to choose. When all along it is consequential will...

 

[waitasec]

1. Adam and Eve had to know the risk and consequences of their choices – both the risk and consequences to them and to G-d. One can argue that Adam and Eve knew of the risk and consequences to themselves because G-d told them. That is a bit of a reach because G-d’s pre-fall explanation is incomplete but the second part (risk and consequences to G-d) was clearly not known from what is provided in scripture. 2. If before Adam was created as a physical entity his essence knew of the risks and consequences both to him and G-d then and only then would the Fall be a choice and an expression of free will.

How could they know the act of disobedience was evil? If their eyes were not open at the moment the choice was made and didn't know of their nakedness until after they ate the fruit. Btw, what is so evil about being naked and why was that the first thing they were ashamed of instead of the act of disobedience?
The moment god gave adam the CHOICE was the moment god KNEW his dominion cannot conquer Adams free will, the all powerful creator of EVERYTHING cannot control my will. The ultimate enemy of the IDEOLOGY of an all powerful god

 

[Willamena]

I am merely only trying to point out the irreconcilable contradiction of the fundamental foundation of the idea of salvation...our freedom of will to choose.

Some teach salvation is found simply in believing in Christ.

 

[waitasec]

Some teach salvation is found simply in believing in Christ.

with freedom of will or circumstantial will?

Remember there is no fear in freedom

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

It is obvious from the scriptures of garden epoch that there are important pieces of information missing.

i would agree with you on the 'obvious' comment. but i dont think i am comfortable with you making additions to 'revealed' text after the fact. infallible scripture doesn't get do-overs, even when it becomes obvious to everyone that there are holes in it.

 

[Willamena]

with freedom of will or circumstantial will?

Remember there is no fear in freedom

If will is not free, it's not will. But the requirement to believe isn't conditional.

 

[waitasec]

If will is not free, it's not will. But the requirement to believe isn't conditional.

How is it not conditional? The fear of the alternative is consequential. There is no freedom in the presence of fear