The fall of man; Free will

[Skwim]

God is all powerful, the Almighty - I highly doubt freewill would be a huge obstacle for Him if He didn't want us to have it. He created it after all.

If anything, it would be the illusion of it.

 

[waitasec]

Christianity isn't about the afterlife it's about this life.
You appear more attached to a literal interpretation of a myth than many who subscribe to the myth.
You also seem rather angry with this God you don't believe in.

The Christian faith is about the after life there is NO question about that

I am angry at the underlying notion this country was based on christian principles...the 1st amendment goes against the 1st commandment. This nation was not founded as a Christian nation, but the Christians righ are attempting to make it so. Our founding fathers were against having one religion over other. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Tomas Jefferson, James Madison and Thomas Payne. The Treaty of Tripoli ratified unanimously by congress; the government of the united states of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion


Those two words, “under god” in the pledge of allegiance changed the meaning of the entire pledge in 1954 by the Knights of Columbus (a catholic organization). In 1892 it said, “We belong to the United States because of what it stands for, ONE NATION UNDIVIDED WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. Not for the MAJORITY but for EVERYONE, with liberty and justice for ALL. However, since these two words were added to our allegiance we now find ourselves as a DIVIDED nation by the injustice of our freedoms being infringed upon by the majority; the religious right. Why else would our politicians debate on national TV about their belief in the god of the bible? The religious right not only carries the weight for political advantage but are also infringing on our freedoms.

 

[waitasec]

I'd say that's true. On the other hand, living in an afterlife of eternal bliss (salvation) comes from surrendering (sacrificing) ego, right here, right now. That is living in Christ (to me).

The reason people believe in the after life is because they can't come to terms with DEATH. Why is death associated with evil?
how are the believers able to enjoy their eternal life knowing that their loved ones are in eternal damnation? Seems that the only way to avoid that is to be totally engulfed in EGO. We are alone when we are born, but are we alone when we die after a lifetime of relationships? Isn’t that what living is about; relationships, interaction and how we treat one another in the freedom we were all born into?

Adam's decision, and inherently his ability to decide, is a story element, one that advances the narrative from our characters living in a state of harmony to a state of knowing of self/ego. With that, in subsequent story, comes all the things that are born of egoistic being: a sense of self in relation to others, ownership (of body, of mind, of the concepts we generate), free will (self-determination), disobedience/wronging of others, responsibility, shame, guilt, fear (which leads to the Dark Side) --these are part of our conceptual make-up that we put on and wear around all day long (hell).

It's a story of us, as we are here, now.

Answer me this simple question, Did Adam KNOW disobedience was wrong, evil or bad before he ate the fruit?

 

[waitasec]

God is all powerful, the Almighty - I highly doubt freewill would be a huge obstacle for Him if He didn't want us to have it. He created it after all.

Isn't the god of your bible a jealous god? Since the god in your bible is the creator of everything, god knows other gods can't exist because he didn't create them, right? So what is god jealous of, REALLY? Your freedom of will.
This is the threat against an ALL POWERFUL DIETY. THE ORIGINAL SIN.

 

[Thief]

And around and around we go....

As if no one here knows when he is free to do as he pleases...
and when that freedom is compromised.

If someone kicks in your front door and puts a gun in your face...
your freewill has been stolen.
Don't you know the difference?
You won't miss it?

That you live in a money motivated society, that eats away your time....
your effort...and compromises everything about you...
You don't know when you are being coerced...subjugated?

Sure, most of you understand.
You know you are not free.

As for Man...on Day Six....
Go forth...be fruitful and multiply...partake as you will...dominate all things.
And we did.
No names....no law....no restriction....

Such a creature is little more than animal.
This sort of thing cannot be invited into heaven.
It cannot sit at the table and behave with any grace.
Would not the angels object?
Is it not common to believe some objection has been made?

Day Seven....God rests...the creation process has stopped.
And Man continues to behave like an animal.

THEN Chapter Two....the Garden...which has all the earmarks of an experiment.

A specimen is chosen.
Placed into ideal living conditions. His life span greatly increases.
He is trained.
The experiment is cloned to perpetuate it.
Adam is given his twin sister for a bride.
Then a situation is presented.

That Man made a 'choice'....was altogether essential.
To walk in heaven and not know the difference between good and evil?
Really?
Was it not reported....'They have become as we are'.
Why then should eternal life be denied?
Why then did the way to heaven not present itself?
Was it not common belief to say the doors were shut, and we are not allowed into paradise?

It is said....
The acquisition of knowledge damned us.
I say...
It is the acquisition of wisdom that saves us.

Man did not fall in the Garden.
He was given a choice. He took it.
It had to be that way.
We would be no more than animals without the acquisition of knowledge.
But knowledge in itself is not a saving grace.


Entry into heaven requires that you say as They say...do as They do.
If not...then heaven is no more than this life.

 

[Riverwolf]

No he ran away because his eyes were opened to his nakedness (what's wrong with being naked anyway?) which is another interesting point, he did hide from shame of disobedience he hid 'cause he was embarrassed to be naked.

"Ran" figuratively, not literally. He ran when he tried to place the blame on God and Eve.

Again, I'm pointing this out because so many christians believe the original sin was what Adam chose to do NOT the fact that the sin was actually having the freedom of will, because the god in the Judeo/Christian belief cannot have dominion over any ones free will, right?

Wrong. Free will is not one of the themes of this story.

Free will is the real enemy of the god in the bible. There is no free will if you choose to follow christ because of the FEAR of the alternative...It's a choice made out of fear.

This "alternative" you speak of didn't even show up until Revelations, and there was some debate about that text becoming canonical. Hell isn't in the rest of the Bible.

There was another text, the Apocalypse of Peter, which was the other disputed "end chapter" during the canonization of the Christian Bible, in which it is stated that eventually, everyone will get out of hell.

Now, if what you say is true, that there's no free will because of the fear of the alternative, then we don't have free will today because we fear the alternative of breaking the law.

If christians claim that god IS love, is there fear in love? do you follow what I'm saying?

The theists who follow God out of Love do not fear God in the way I am afraid of spiders. When Solomon said that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, he was using fear as a synonym for awe and reverence.

 

[Riverwolf]

The Christian faith is about the after life there is NO question about that

That person is a Christian. I think he knows is own religion, thank you very much.

I am angry at the underlying notion this country was based on christian principles...the 1st amendment goes against the 1st commandment. This nation was not founded as a Christian nation, but the Christians righ are attempting to make it so. Our founding fathers were against having one religion over other. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Tomas Jefferson, James Madison and Thomas Payne. The Treaty of Tripoli ratified unanimously by congress; the government of the united states of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion

You do realize that they're not succeeding, right?

What do modern politics have to do with an ancient Jewish tale?

Those two words, “under god” in the pledge of allegiance changed the meaning of the entire pledge in 1954 by the Knights of Columbus (a catholic organization). In 1892 it said, “We belong to the United States because of what it stands for, ONE NATION UNDIVIDED WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. Not for the MAJORITY but for EVERYONE, with liberty and justice for ALL. However, since these two words were added to our allegiance we now find ourselves as a DIVIDED nation by the injustice of our freedoms being infringed upon by the majority; the religious right. Why else would our politicians debate on national TV about their belief in the god of the bible? The religious right not only carries the weight for political advantage but are also infringing on our freedoms.

Our freedoms are not infringed on. As a kid, I never recited the pledge, and I never got in trouble for it.

I am a Hindu. I am free to be a Hindu. There is no indication that Christians are gaining enough power to take that right away. Besides, even if Hinduism somehow became illegal, I'd still follow it.

Again, what do modern politics have to do with an ancient Jewish tale?

 

[waitasec]

humans are the ONLY ANIMALS that has the ability to rationalize fear.
If the 1st INSTINCT is to flee...we rationalize and deliberately walk into a DANGEROUS situation

 

[waitasec]

Now, if what you say is true, that there's no free will because of the fear of the alternative, then we don't have free will today because we fear the alternative of breaking the law.

ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, with freedom comes responsibility, respecting other peoples freedom...I cannot infringe on your freedom because that is a violation of the NATURAL LAW, there is no fear in respecting someone else's freedom is there? Unless you are trying to control me...

The theists who follow God out of Love do not fear God in the way I am afraid of spiders. When Solomon said that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, he was using fear as a synonym for awe and reverence.

The god in the bible created hell, eternal damnation, eternal separation as a consequence for not following, believing or having faith in the god of the Judeo/Christian faith...that IS the consequence...and because in this faith there is no freedom of will the the christian right the have appointed themselves as a mediator between my right and the model of freedom. They fail to recognize our individual freedom of will. There is nothing more fundamental and more inclusive than that. The religious infringe on my freedom to be able to exercise my will. Look up Blue Laws...

"Ran" figuratively, not literally. He ran when he tried to place the blame on God and Eve.

Gen3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Again I say, the FIRST THING THEY WERE ASHAMED OF WAS THEIR NAKEDNESS...not that the DISOBEYED, INTERESTING, HUH?

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

THEY HID BECAUSE, WHY....?

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

SO WHAT DID SHE DO 1ST? HIDE BECAUSE OF HER NAKEDNESS OR BLAME THE SERPENT...

Wrong. Free will is not one of the themes of this story.

Did Adam know he was committing an EVIL act by disobeying before he ate the fruit?

This "alternative" you speak of didn't even show up until Revelations, and there was some debate about that text becoming canonical. Hell isn't in the rest of the Bible.

the alternative was, "you will surely die"...there is no freedom in the face of fear, right?

 

[waitasec]

That person is a Christian. I think he knows is own religion, thank you very much.

I used to follow the christian faith went to bible college, the whole 9 yards. I was going into the ministry...
What opened my eyes was I couldn't reconcile free will and the fear of the alternative

You do realize that they're not succeeding, right?

Are you telling me that gay marriage is not something the religious right is fighting against with tooth and nail?

What do modern politics have to do with an ancient Jewish tale?

It is this underlying notion that has a hold on people and why they vote the way they do. Do you actually think politicians care about religion, it is a useful tool (for most, some people I believe are not purposefully using religion as a tool) especially for the conservative republicans...

Our freedoms are not infringed on. As a kid, I never recited the pledge, and I never got in trouble for it.

I'm not talking about saying it, that is your choice...and that wasn't my point. My point is our founding fathers did not want any religion to rule over other religions...this country was not based on the christian faith

I am a Hindu. I am free to be a Hindu. There is no indication that Christians are gaining enough power to take that right away. Besides, even if Hinduism somehow became illegal, I'd still follow it.

For now...it is equal rights for ALL not the majority (heterosexuals-couples) but for the minority (same sex couples)too

Again, what do modern politics have to do with an ancient Jewish tale?

Did you read the news today? Congress was debating the bible...

Congress debates biblical stance on immigration – Religion - CNN.com Blogs

 

[waitasec]

And around and around we go....


Man did not fall in the Garden.
He was given a choice. He took it.
It had to be that way.
We would be no more than animals without the acquisition of knowledge.
But knowledge in itself is not a saving grace.


Entry into heaven requires that you say as They say...do as They do.
If not...then heaven is no more than this life.

humans are the ONLY ANIMALS that has the ability to rationalize fear.
If the 1st INSTINCT is to flee...we rationalize and deliberately walk into a DANGEROUS situation

 

[Willamena]

Answer me this simple question, Did Adam KNOW disobedience was wrong, evil or bad before he ate the fruit?

There was no "wrong, evil or bad" before he ate the fruit.

 

[it's_sam]

I simply don't see God thinking adam wouldnt ever eat it, but he might of wondered how long it would take and the reason why. He wouldnt of given this fruit a connection to us in any way if he didnt expect us to use it. I may be a guinea pig but atleast he gave me a wheel to run on

 

[waitasec]

There was no "wrong, evil or bad" before he ate the fruit.

the TREE of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL was in the garden

doesn't that mean good, evil existed but adam/eve had no prior knowledge/UNDERSTANDING of it?

so, did they KNOW disobedience was evil?

 

[waitasec]

I simply don't see God thinking adam wouldnt ever eat it, but he might of wondered how long it would take and the reason why. He wouldnt of given this fruit a connection to us in any way if he didnt expect us to use it. I may be a guinea pig but atleast he gave me a wheel to run on

I didn't take very long, if I'm not mistaken, the Hebrew translation actually says how long it took for man to be thrown out of the garden of Eden...a few days...

 

[it's_sam]

Good points waitasec. How could he hold them to blame for something they had no idea how to comprehend? Again I think he knew the whole time, just wanted to show us for ourselves what we will do if you have nothing holding you back.

 

[it's_sam]

HAHA ya we are quick to mess up a good thing.

 

[Zadok]

I simply don't see God thinking adam wouldnt ever eat it, but he might of wondered how long it would take and the reason why. He wouldnt of given this fruit a connection to us in any way if he didnt expect us to use it. I may be a guinea pig but atleast he gave me a wheel to run on

I explained what is missing from scripture in post # 18 and why it was a good thing for Adam and Eve to "partake". It also explains why we do not know anything directly of G-d.

Zadok

 

[it's_sam]

I explained what is missing from scripture in post # 18 and why it was a good thing for Adam and Eve to "partake". It also explains why we do not know anything directly of G-d.

Zadok

Oh ya i had read that but forgot HAHA sorry

 

[Willamena]

the TREE of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL was in the garden

doesn't that mean good, evil existed but adam/eve had no prior knowledge/UNDERSTANDING of it?

so, did they KNOW disobedience was evil?

Those things, in this context, are nothing more than our knowledge of them.