The "F word" for those who hate the word "feminist"

[Revoltingest]

RF established a safe space for feminists to go if we wish to discuss issues without being repeatedly derailed into why feminism isn't even needed, how feminists are angry ugly hairy man-haters, and a host of other derailment tactics demonstrated by other members.

But try to offer even mild & reasoned critique of feminism, & their hordes will descend
upon the thread to call us misogynists & send the attempt at discussion into thread jail.

 

[Riverwolf]

If people want gender-based equality, why not just simply call it egalitarianism? That way its a more universal endeavor.

It's more universal, and also unfocused. All feminists are, by extension, egalitarian, but with a focus on womens' issues. We can't take on all the world's issues.

Think of egalitarianism as an umbrella term that refers to the many, more focused, movements that involve different groups of people.

However, there are a few self-proclaimed feminist and social justice warriors who make mundane things into gender issues for no real valid reason (eg Anita Sarkeesian and video games)

They're not on the same level as the stuff that happens in third-world countries in terms of immediate severity, but the content in our artwork is hardly so mundane that it's not worth addressing. The reasons she provided are quite valid: games do not exist in a vacuum, and do have subtle effects on our psychology, especially when reinforced by culture.

 

[xkatz]

First, if it is annoying, there ought to be the question, "why?" Does it make people uncomfortable? Or is it an annoying misdirection that can be glossed over?

Did I ever call gender-equality annoying?

Sarkeesian receives rape and death threats. I don't think this is the result of people finding her annoying. I find them to be attempts to get her to shut up.

That is truly awful, but because people are threatening her doesn't automatically make her own position on certain issues right or valid. Being threatened and being right are two different things.

 

[Riverwolf]

A major problem with feminism is that you either are a feminist(then worthy) or you are not(then unworthy).

I think you'd be scared to death to discuss/debate these things openly in public if simply mentioning them got you thousands of rape and death threats a day, both against you and your family/friends.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Look at the word it screams female supremacy yet says to be equal. Your basically making my point. Most feminists pretend to know what is best for all women and oppose women who disagree with them. If you do disagree your sexist and anti-women. It's a word that feeds the female-ego.

Hmmm, objecting to "fem" in feminism, but not objecting to "man" in humanism?

Cute.

The gay community has nothing to do with women's rights. Because some women support and others do not. Which is another thing of trying to bundle causes. I am pretty sure a gay guy is not centered on your rights. Has his own **** to worry about. Plus Lesbian comes before Gay. Lesbian is simply a word used to further describe a female as gay. If says she is Gay everyone knows she is a lesbian.

My suggestion. Read more on gender theory and queer theory, and there is a bit of overlap. Feminist scholars helped to pave the way decades ago by challenging the gender construct set up by society. And as a bisexual woman, feminism does provide me the space to speak my voice.

Feminists cannot take a joke pointed at them. If I were to say make me a sandwich and afterward give me a blow job you would freak the hell out. Plus unless you met your boyfriend at a women's rally probably only cares because you do. Do you discuss men's rights as well? Of how the judicial system is inclined to give child custody to women. One that allows women to decide whether or not to have a kid. But if she does the guy has to pay for it even if he wanted the abortion. One that screams out rape of women. Yet completely shuns men being raped by women.

1) you haven't been paying attention to the threads in the mens forum, have you? Where self identified feminists enter threads to support the fight against custody disparity.

2) again with the angry feminist woman trope? Dang, that stereotype just loves to hang around, doesn't it?

3) In many rape threads, feminists overall make it a point to categorize survivors in a gender neutral manner, and the perpetrator in a gender neutral manner. Rape is about power and control, and not about sex, given how men, women, and children find themselves victimized in various circumstances for the purpose of establishing power and dominance by the perpetrator.

 

[Revoltingest]

Therefore, "gay rights movement" screams homosexual supremacy, "minority rights movement" screams minority supremacy, etc... if we want to be consistent with this kind of logic, that is.

A big difference is that feminists often claim that there is no need for MRA or humanism because they're subsumed into feminism. I don't see LGBT activists strongly making the claim that they fight for the rights of straight folk. Feminists do focus more on female rights, & that's fine....but this is not identical to focusing on human rights or gender equality, nor does it obviate the need for other groups to focus upon their narrower concerns.

 

[Riverwolf]

That is truly awful, but because people are threatening her doesn't automatically make her own position on certain issues right or valid. Being threatened and being right are two different things.

She didn't start getting those hoards of threats until she announced the Video Game series, which tells me that her point is absolutely reinforced by the behavior of too many gamers.

IOW, that she got so many threats is a very indication that she's more right than even she realized.

Especially since dozens of other video game youtubers have been saying virtually the exact same things for years, and never got the same amount of threats. It wasn't until a woman started making these arguments that the threats came.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think you'd be scared to death to discuss/debate these things openly in public if simply mentioning them got you thousands of rape and death threats a day, both against you and your family/friends.

Should this claim justify dismissing those of us who don't identify as feminist?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But try to offer even mild & reasoned critique of feminism, & their hordes will descend
upon the thread to call us misogynists & send the attempt at discussion into thread jail.

Mild? You mean when a wage gap debate is brought up, critics don't discuss more from data or calling out fallacies, but just show up saying that "this is why I hate feminism"?

Or why feminists aren't taken seriously?

Or why feminism is hated, and that we should just shut up?

Trust me, feminists debate each other all the time. We're not immune to criticism. Just keep the derailment out of it and it's cool.

 

[Riverwolf]

A big difference is that feminists often claim that there is no need for MRA or humanism because they're subsumed into feminism. I don't see LGBT activists strongly making the claim that they fight for the rights of straight folk. Feminists do focus more on female rights, & that's fine....but this is not identical to focusing on human rights or gender equality, nor does it obviate the need for other groups to focus upon their narrower concerns.

General human rights, maybe not (as that's, again, more broad and unfocused), but it's absolutely about gender equality, since these issues hurt everyone, not just women.

 

[xkatz]

It's more universal, and also unfocused. All feminists are, by extension, egalitarian, but with a focus on womens' issues. We can't take on all the world's issues.

Think of egalitarianism as an umbrella term that refers to the many, more focused, movements that involve different groups of people.

Fair enough.

They're not on the same level as the stuff that happens in third-world countries in terms of immediate severity, but the content in our artwork is hardly so mundane that it's not worth addressing. The reasons she provided are quite valid: games do not exist in a vacuum, and do have subtle effects on our psychology, especially when reinforced by culture.

Games do not exist in a vacuum but most games are not made or meant to be taken as social commentary either. People of differing opinions will think differently. Conservatives will say liberals are too powerful, and liberals vice-versa. This is no different. If there's such a problem, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Make your voice heard with your money. Feminism is causing itself so much harm by getting into issues like gaming, instead of focusing on more important issues. Like, you know, equality and rights?

 

[Riverwolf]

Should this claim justify dismissing those of us who don't identify as feminist?

You tell me. Have you ever suffered that level of abuse?

 

[Revoltingest]

Mild? You mean when a wage gap debate is brought up, critics don't discuss more from data or calling out fallacies, but just show up saying that "this is why I hate feminism"?

No...I wasn't part of (don't even recall) that discussion.
I was thinking of another thread.

Or why feminists aren't taken seriously?

I'm thinking of those where feminists are taken seriously.

Or why feminism is hated, and that we should just shut up?

That sounds awful. I suggest spending less time on reddit.
(Yeah, I went there once to check it out cuz so many feminists
were complaining about it. Horrible place.....just horrible.)

Trust me, feminists debate each other all the time. We're not immune to criticism. Just keep the derailment out of it and it's cool.

They just don't tolerate outsiders disagreeing with them...even reasonable ones.
Now this is not to say all feminists are so intolerant, but there are enuf of them
that they derail such attempts at civil discourse/disagreement (in my experience).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Did I ever call gender-equality annoying?

That is truly awful, but because people are threatening her doesn't automatically make her own position on certain issues right or valid. Being threatened and being right are two different things.

No, you mentioned why Sarkeesian is seen as "annoying." That is what I was responding to.

She brings up points to consider how various popular culture entertainment like gaming does not provide a gender neutral platform, where men and women are represented without objectification or dehumanization. And where female characters are fully active in moving the plot and action along as much as male characters.

The Bechdel test does the same for film entertainment.

If that is annoying, the question is "why?" Does discussing disparity make people uncomfortable? And if so, why is that?

 

[Revoltingest]

You tell me. Have you ever suffered that level of abuse?

I have.
Will you answer my question (which was posed first, & wasn't rhetorical)?

 

[Sunstone]

Look at the word it screams female supremacy yet says to be equal. Your basically making my point. Most feminists pretend to know what is best for all women and oppose women who disagree with them. If you do disagree your sexist and anti-women. It's a word that feeds the female-ego.

The gay community has nothing to do with women's rights. Because some women support and others do not. Which is another thing of trying to bundle causes. I am pretty sure a gay guy is not centered on your rights. Has his own **** to worry about. Plus Lesbian comes before Gay. Lesbian is simply a word used to further describe a female as gay. If says she is Gay everyone knows she is a lesbian.

Feminists cannot take a joke pointed at them. If I were to say make me a sandwich and afterward give me a blow job you would freak the hell out. Plus unless you met your boyfriend at a women's rally probably only cares because you do. Do you discuss men's rights as well? Of how the judicial system is inclined to give child custody to women. One that allows women to decide whether or not to have a kid. But if she does the guy has to pay for it even if he wanted the abortion. One that screams out rape of women. Yet completely shuns men being raped by women.

Something that always interests me is how many people hate something based upon their imaginings and wild speculations, rather than on fact. Like in the above post. Eighty percent imaginings, twenty percent fact.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No...I wasn't part of (don't even recall) that discussion.
I was thinking of another thread.


I'm thinking of those where feminists are taken seriously.


That sounds awful. I suggest spending less time on reddit.
(Yeah, I went there once to check it out cuz so many feminists
were complaining about it. Horrible place.....just horrible.)


They just don't tolerate outsiders disagreeing with them...even reasonable ones.
Now this is not to say all feminists are so intolerant, but there are enuf of them
that they derail such attempts at civil discourse/disagreement (in my experience).

If disagreement centered around ignoring equality, debate is just fine.

If the disagreement was/is about why feminism shouldn't even exist? Then I prefer to disengage. I shouldn't have to sell the idea of the mere existence of feminism to others in a society that supports the right to free association.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I have.

You have been subjected to rape and death threats because of your views on gender? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[xkatz]

She didn't start getting those hoards of threats until she announced the Video Game series, which tells me that her point is absolutely reinforced by the behavior of too many gamers.

IOW, that she got so many threats is a very indication that she's more right than even she realized.

But it's not.

If said, "black people should be slaves" or "9/11 is a lie" and I got numerous threats made against me and my innocent family, would I be automatically be right because I got threats?

Especially since dozens of other video game youtubers have been saying virtually the exact same things for years, and never got the same amount of threats. It wasn't until a woman started making these arguments that the threats came.

Yes there are terrible, sexist people who only would threaten women for the sake of being women. There's no denying that.

 

[Revoltingest]

If disagreement centered around ignoring equality, debate is just fine.
If the disagreement was/is about why feminism shouldn't even exist? Then I prefer to disengage. I shouldn't have to sell the idea of the mere existence of feminism to others in a society that supports the right to free association.

The problems I've found in discussing feminism weren't about challenging its very existence.
I've repeatedly stated that I favor both gender equality & the existence of feminism, but
feminists still lowered the boom.