The EU is a bankers' dictatorship founded upon Seigniorage

[Estro Felino]

Banks are an important method by which capital is acquired to create industrial production facilities; without such capital-gathering institutions, industrialization would be close to impossible in a modern capitalist economy. What you call "legalized usury" is in fact the primary means by which banks can remain in business, and the primary motivator for industries to remain competitive and thus profitable.

I just want the ECB to be 100% public, that is owned by public entities whose aim is not the profit maximization.
Btw the Central Bank of a country is supposed to be owned by the State. By the treasury, because the State only has the juridical legitimization to issue money.

You are falling prey to the classic corporatist ploy of separating "good" capital from "bad" capital - as if the direct exploitation of labor at the hands of industry-owning capitalists was somehow more virtuous and moral than owning the capital that faciliates this exploitation of labor in the first place. This ploy is one that was first pushed by industrial capitalists, and is almost always a self-serving one - a method to mask their own exploitation in favor of an easily-demonized "outsider" enemy. But fact is that they are all cogs in the same machine.

I think that labor is a sacred right, an exploitation is really awful. And illegal.
Capitalists exploit people just because by exploitation they reach the profit maximization.
Profits are never enough to them.

Talking about Italian producers specifically, I cannot help but point out the blatant exploitation of foreign workers at the hands of these supposedly virtuous, moral, "productive" industrial and agricultural facilities, where people are working under conditions that should turn every decent human being's stomach.

Blaming "international banking" for this would be both facile and a tad disingenuous, in my opinion, since nothing but their own drive for ever greater profits is driving Italian capitalists to exploit labor to such a staggering degree.

Quite the opposite. It is the Banking system which benefits from the Capitalists' profit maximization.
Farmers who are paid fairly and who live a dignifying life, are not on their list.

The state - and here, in particular, the xenophobic-nationalist movements that drive the exploitation of these foreigners the hardest, via their policies of inequal rights and unfair treatment for foreigners - is very much complicit in this, and we can see this every time people start protesting these conditions, only to be brutally put down by organized state violence in the form of tear gas, water cannons, and police batons.

Quite the opposite. The so called "nationalist movements" here are against illegal immigration and want Italians to work on the fields and on farms.
Not only because of exploitations of immigrants is awful, but also because they will not okay an ethnic replacement.

 

[Kooky]

I just want the ECB to be 100% public, that is owned by public entities whose aim is not the profit maximization.

The ECB is a public institution.

Btw the Central Bank of a country is supposed to be owned by the State. By the treasury, because the State only has the juridical legitimization to issue money.

So what you're telling me is that the Banca d'Italia was never a real central bank? Because it is not only not owned by the Republic of Italy, it was not owned by the Italian state at any point in its history.

Quite the opposite. It is the Banking system which benefits from the Capitalists' profit maximization.

It is a mutually profitable arrangement.

Farmers who are paid fairly and who live a dignifying life, are not on their list.

A lot of successful farmers exploit poor day laborers for their own personal profit.

Quite the opposite. The so called "nationalist movements" here are against illegal immigration and want Italians to work on the fields and on farms.

They're "against illegal immigration", because the oppression of immigrants into a rightless, criminal class allows for even greater exploitation of these people.

In practice, the nationalist-xenophobic anti-immigration policies, by restricting the legal methods by which immigrants can exist, actually increase the portion of "illegal" immigrants by making more and more immigrants "illegal". These "illegal" immigrants then present a perfect opportunity for industry and agriculture to be exploited - they cannot appeal to legal authorities for fear of being maltreated and deported, they cannot attain better work because the best jobs require legal status, and they cannot return to their home countries for fairly obvious reasons.

The people made "illegal" by the anti-immigration policies of nationalist-xenophobes are therefore trapped and powerless against the exploitative practices of capital, and a lot of xenophobes accept this with glee, since they enjoy the suffering of people who they think "deserve" it for being "illegal".

Have you never wondered why it is wealthy conservatives who are the greatest supporters of xenophobes and neofascists?

 

[Estro Felino]

The ECB is a public institution.

No. It is stock company, an Aktiengesellschaft.
Meaning its stakes are owned by all the European central banks, including the Bank of England.
And these banks are private.
Ergo...the ECB is privately owned.

So what you're telling me is that the Banca d'Italia was never a real central bank? Because it is not only not owned by the Republic of Italy, it was not owned by the Italian state at any point in its history.

By the time of fascism, it became public.
The Fascism expropriated the stakes owned by privates in 1935, and in 1936 it became a public law entity.
Some people have tried to erase history, but apparently the Governor of Bankitalia, Stringher was thrown out of the window.
In 1982, there was the divorce between Italian treasury and Bankitalia, and now is private.
It is owned by private banks.

In practice, the nationalist-xenophobic anti-immigration policies, by restricting the legal methods by which immigrants can exist, actually increase the portion of "illegal" immigrants by making more and more immigrants "illegal". These "illegal" immigrants then present a perfect opportunity for industry and agriculture to be exploited - they cannot appeal to legal authorities for fear of being maltreated and deported, they cannot attain better work because the best jobs require legal status, and they cannot return to their home countries for fairly obvious reasons.

The people made "illegal" by the anti-immigration policies of nationalist-xenophobes are therefore trapped and powerless against the exploitative practices of capital, and a lot of xenophobes accept this with glee, since they enjoy the suffering of people who they think "deserve" it for being "illegal".

Have you never wondered why it is wealthy conservatives who are the greatest supporters of xenophobes and neofascists?

The so called nationalist want zero illegal migrants. Period.
Economics has nothing to do with it.
They just want a European Italy.

 

[Kooky]

The so called nationalist want zero illegal migrants. Period.

If they did, they'd legalize all current migration, but they are doing the exact opposite: They have steadily increased hurdles towards naturalization and legal migration, effectively increasing the proportion of foreign citizens and illegal migrants for decades to come.

So they are either spectacular idiots who don't know how to go about achieving their own stated political goal, or they are not, in fact, interested in actually decreasing the proportion of migrants who are illegally living in Italy.

What do you think is the most likely option?

Economics has nothing to do with it.
They just want a European Italy.

If "economics has nothing to do" with the exploitation of foreigners by Italian capitalists, then this would mean the brutalization and oppression of foreigners in Italy is being done entirely for its own sake. Is that what you are claiming?

I'd have expected you to deny that anything bad has ever happened to foreigners at all, or that all migrants had it coming to them and deserved their exploitation and oppression, or come up with some other argument that would give meaning to the brutalization of all these people.

 

[Estro Felino]

If they did, they'd legalize all current migration, but they are doing the exact opposite: They have steadily increased hurdles towards naturalization and legal migration, effectively increasing the proportion of foreign citizens and illegal migrants for decades to come.

So they are either spectacular idiots who don't know how to go about achieving their own stated political goal, or they are not, in fact, interested in actually decreasing the proportion of migrants who are illegally living in Italy.

What do you think is the most likely option?


If "economics has nothing to do" with the exploitation of foreigners by Italian capitalists, then this would mean the brutalization and oppression of foreigners in Italy is being done entirely for its own sake. Is that what you are claiming?

I'd have expected you to deny that anything bad has ever happened to foreigners at all, or that all migrants had it coming to them and deserved their exploitation and oppression, or come up with some other argument that would give meaning to the brutalization of all these people.

Excuse me, dear mister, this thread is about the ECB and Seigniorage Banking.
Please, stay on topic.

 

[Kooky]

Excuse me, dear mister, this thread is about the ECB and Seigniorage Banking.
Please, stay on topic.

It wasn't me who brought up fascist Italy as a positive example of how to run a national economy.

 

[Estro Felino]

It wasn't me who brought up fascist Italy as a positive example of how to run a national economy.

How would you define that management?
Left-wing or right-wing?

Btw...I need to speak of that period to understand the banking system of today.

 

[Kooky]

How would you define that management?
Left-wing or right-wing?

I would characterize it as fascist - elitist, authoritarian, and based in the assumption that all functional management needs to be centrally coordinated and hierarchical in nature. Remember though that I am a libertarian socialist, so that will always color my judgement of things.

 

[Estro Felino]

@Heyo
Thank you so much for quoting Henry Ford i @Revoltingest 's thread
Could you repost that meme here...since it is about this thread?

 

[Revoltingest]

@Heyo
Thank you so much for quoting Henry Ford i @Revoltingest 's thread
Could you repost that meme here...since it is about this thread?

Bankers can be good or evil.
Ameristanian banks have been great for me. I borrow money
at good interest rates. The people are great, & they work with
me.
Have you ever borrowed money from non-bank sources,
eg, individuals, insurance companies? They are far more
difficult for sourcing loans. Individuals are more expensive.
Insurance companies make only very large long term loans.
Banks are best to serve us smaller borrowers.

My worst experience ever with a bank was RBC (Royal
Bank Of Scotland), which is largely owned by the British
government. They bought a couple banks here in USA,
eg, Citizens NA.
When they became a lender of mine, they were horribly
uncooperative when the real estate crash hit. It was as
though they weren't interested in collecting payments,
but rather fighting. Fortunately, they sold my loans to
an Ameristanian company, & everything was back on
track. I'd like to see British banks barred from buying
any here.

Our banks are great....governments are the problem.
What's wrong with yours?

 

[Estro Felino]

Bankers can be good or evil.
Ameristanian banks have been great for me. I borrow money
at good interest rates. The people are great, & they work with
me.
Have you ever borrowed money from non-bank sources,
eg, individuals, insurance companies? They are far more
difficult for sourcing loans. Individuals are more expensive.
Insurance companies make only very large long term loans.
Banks are best to serve us smaller borrowers.

My worst experience ever with a bank was RBC (Royal
Bank Of Scotland), which is largely owned by the British
government. They bought a couple banks here in USA,
eg, Citizens NA.
When they became a lender of mine, they were horribly
uncooperative when the real estate crash hit. It was as
though they weren't interested in collecting payments,
but rather fighting. Fortunately, they sold my loans to
an Ameristanian company, & everything was back on
track. I'd like to see British banks barred from buying
any here.

Our banks are great....governments are the problem.
What's wrong with yours?

Rural banks, regional banks, local banks are great.
I just want the national Bank known as Bankitalia to be 100% owned by the State. Or by public entities controlled by the State.
And yet it is owned by big banks who have no right to possess the stakes of a Central Bank.
If I were Prime Minister, I would expropriate those stakes after five seconds.
I would give them to the State entities, like CDP and others.

The ECB is a dictatorial, devilish entity that is led by a powerful élite who is playing monopoly....but not with fake money. With real money.

Their dream is to possess anything.
Any bank. Any corporation. Any enterprise.


That is why I want the State to be wealthy. Incredibly wealthy. Possessing highways, ports, ships, dockyards, banks, power companies...etcc...
A powerful wealthy State can fight the ECB.

I want the public sector to prevail over the private one.

 

[Revoltingest]

Rural banks, regional banks, local banks are great.
I just want the national Bank known as Bankitalia to be 100% owned by the State. Or by public entities controlled by the State.
And yet it is owned by big banks who have no right to possess the stakes of a Central Bank.
If I were Prime Minister, I would expropriate those stakes after five seconds.
I would give them to the State entities, like CDP and others.

Government always has a sense of impunity, which results
in poor service, & even the most abusive behavior, eg, RBC.
Businesses can be regulated....government less so.
Just look at our attempts at police reform...
The only success we've had isn't due to government's becoming
caring. It's because we buy cel phones & dash cams from
businesses. Before those, cops did whatever they wanted
with no interference.

The ECB is a dictatorial, devilish entity that is led by a powerful élite who is playing monopoly....but not with fake money. With real money.

Their dream is to possess anything.
Any bank. Any corporation. Any enterprise.

Government is more dictatorial than any business.
They have total power over us, eg, military, police,
courts. At least with private businesses, I can use
ones I like, & avoid the others.

That is why I want the State to be wealthy. Incredibly wealthy. Possessing highways, ports, ships, dockyards, banks, power companies...etcc...
A powerful wealthy State can fight the ECB.

I want the public sector to prevail over the private one.

When the public sector goes bad, then everything goes bad.
There is no Plan B, unlike having businesses to choose from.
Let's imagine if Trump's insurrection had succeeded....
Who here would want him to take over both government
and industry? A socialist worker paradise run by him....ugh.

 

[Estro Felino]

Government always has a sense of impunity, which results
in poor service, & even the most abusive behavior, eg, RBC.

Government is more dictatorial than any business.
They have total power over us, eg, military, police,
courts. At least with private businesses, I can use
ones I like, & avoid the others.

When the public sector goes bad, then everything goes bad.
There is no Plan B, unlike having businesses to choose from.
Let's imagine if Trump's insurrection had succeeded....
Who here would want him to take over both government
and industry? A socialist worker paradise run by him....ugh.

Government and State are two different things.
Government is the executive power.

The State is the public Administration which includes all public servants who work for the common good.
The Administrative Law is all about the common good which always prevails over private interests.

 

[Revoltingest]

Government and State are two different things.
Government is the executive power.

The State is the public Administration which includes all public servants who work for the common good.
The Administrative Law is all about the common good which always prevails over private interests.

That seems a distinction without a distinction.

 

[Estro Felino]

That seems a distinction without a distinction.

The State includes all the powers of the public administration.
There are 3 powers. The legislative, the executive and the judiciary.
Legislative= Congress
Executive = POTUS snd Government
Judiciary= SCOTUS and judges

 

[Estro Felino]

@Revoltingest

I am describing you a situation about a real Italian person. A very powerful person.
A very powerful banker (Catholic) who owns millions, decides to bribe some politicians to force them to undersell some public assets. He will gain millions from this operation.
The result will be that so many people will lose their job and go poor.

Do you think this person is morally good?

 

[Revoltingest]

The State includes all the powers of the public administration.
There are 3 powers. The legislative, the executive and the judiciary.
Legislative= Congress
Executive = POTUS snd Government
Judiciary= SCOTUS and judges

The worst things ever done to us have been when
those branches cooperate. Tyranny needn't be by
dictatorship....it can be by committee.

 

[Estro Felino]

The worst things ever done to us have been when
those branches cooperate. Tyranny needn't be by
dictatorship....it can be by committee.

In Italy the judiciary is supposed be apolitical...so the first two are political


They are supposed...but actually it is politicized.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest

I am describing you a situation about a real Italian person. A very powerful person.
A very powerful banker (Catholic) who owns millions, decides to bribe some politicians to force them to undersell some public assets. He will gain millions from this operation.
The result will be that so many people will lose their job and go poor.

Do you think this person is morally good?

No.
Corruption is a problem in every system ever designed.
Centralizing everything only makes it worse.
Vigilance against evil should never cease.

 

[Revoltingest]

In Italy the judiciary is supposed be apolitical...so the first two are political
They are supposed...but actually it is politicized.

Politics will infect everything.
Once again, eternal vigilance against evil is necessary.