The End

[Jeremiahcp]

So in what sense do you think morality exists objectively then?

Laws change! In many countries killing people is legal if the government pays you for it and tells you who to kill.

"So in what sense do you think morality exists objectively then?"

Oh please.... I used the word "personalized." Subjectivity and objectivity are nothing but categorical classifications; which means we could debate endlessly about what falls where without making any progress. Morality is a collective perspective based a various different factors; some of which could fall in one or both of the categories.

I know trying to file everything into neat piles of subjectivity and objectivity is really popular in the religious/philosophical circles, but I think it is a limited way of trying to interpret the reality around us, as typically it is a combination of both. Especially since everything that is subjective is also objective and everything that is objective is also subjective.

 

[Kirran]

"So in what sense do you think morality exists objectively then?"

Oh please.... I used the word "personalized." Subjectivity and objectivity are nothing but categorical classifications; which means we could debate endlessly about what falls where without making any progress. Morality is a collective perspective based a various different factors; some of which could fall in one or both of the categories.

I know trying to file everything into neat piles of subjectivity and objectivity is really popular in the religious/philosophical circles, but I think it is a limited way of trying to interpret the reality around us, as typically it is a combination of both. Especially since everything that is subjective is also objective and everything that is objective is also subjective.

Now I'm not trying to catch you out or anything here, all I'm saying is that the subjectivity of morality (on which I am agnostic at present) means that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with anything in a moral sense.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Now I'm not trying to catch you out or anything here, all I'm saying is that the subjectivity of morality (on which I am agnostic at present) means that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with anything in a moral sense.

I am well aware of what you are trying to suggest. Every time the topic of morality comes up there is always some dingus yammering on about subjectivity.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Anyone can lie to answer your hypothetical question. I don't lie.

I don't trust people that claim they don't lie.

 

[Kirran]

I am well aware of what you are trying to suggest. Every time the topic of morality comes up there is always some dingus yammering on about subjectivity.

Well I never said I was.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Well I never said I was.

Great let's go back to your question then.

By whose metric?

By mine and any other person with a sense of decency and a conscience.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Can the view that death is absolute (the big end, nothing after, no way no how) enrich a person's appreciation for life?

There may be some enriching aspects of life from that view, but limited After all God sends his rain on the righteous and unrighteous which includes atheists, letting them by grace enjoy some things.
As a person ages and loses faculties an eternal perspective far outweighs the this is all perspective

on the other hand, having an entail perspective makes the suffering of this life light momentary burdens compared to a weight of glory to come

And since you brought it up... euthanasia has a problem in that it assumes suffering and pleasure ends at death.
That is quite a large assumption.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So in what sense do you think morality exists objectively then?

Laws change! In many countries killing people is legal if the government pays you for it and tells you who to kill.

Why would objective morality exist if morality comes from a god?

If morality is nothing more than God's whim, then how can you be sure that tomorrow, God won't say "new rule! Instead of wanting you not to kill anyone, now I want you to kill two people a day. Get to it!"

 

[Kirran]

Why would objective morality exist if morality comes from a god?

If morality is nothing more than God's whim, then how can you be sure that tomorrow, God won't say "new rule! Instead of wanting you not to kill anyone, now I want you to kill two people a day. Get to it!"

As far as classical Abrahamic monotheistic thinking goes, I'm with you.

 

[George-ananda]

Can the view that death is absolute (the big end, nothing after, no way no how) enrich a person's appreciation for life?

It can make this life more serious and important to them if that can be considered enriching. But to me it is certainly a sadder seeming philosophy.

 

[George-ananda]

Personally, I think it creates liberty; if frees you from all that afterlife nonsense and allows you to focus on the here and now.

I would think an intelligent afterlife belief would give you broader purpose in your focus on the here and now. Unfortunately too much in the past, the afterlife was thought of in very narrow ways.

 

[psychoslice]

What difference does it make if I decide that I want to be a serial killer if I don't have to take responsibility for it ?

Well if that is what you want, then don't mess it up, its your choice.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That is not really the question being asked, remember it says "Can the view". Clearly some people view death as final, so how does that view impact them? The question of if death is or is not absolute is not the question being asked here.

It is amazing how hard it is for some of you to look through beliefs that are not your own.

It would be an unwarranted view in context of such as being ultimate and final.

If a person sees death as a finality, then it's clear he or she could be concerned about that to an extent that the quality of life now will suffer by a greater or lesser extent by being concerned about the notion of finality itself.

I'd say the impact would be any worry and concern that arises.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I would think an intelligent afterlife belief would give you broader purpose in your focus on the here and now. Unfortunately too much in the past, the afterlife was thought of in very narrow ways.

"I would think an intelligent afterlife belief would give you broader purpose in your focus on the here and now"

Why?

 

[George-ananda]

"I would think an intelligent afterlife belief would give you broader purpose in your focus on the here and now"

Why?

You would see life as an evolutionary process with a grander purpose than these material events. Spiritual endeavors, artistic endeavors, relationships. etc. are not just a very short experiences lost at death but part of a continuing expanding process. I feel this gives everything we do in this life broader and longer lasting purpose and meaning.

I, personally would be more apathetic to the world, if I thought the experiences of myself and every one I know are soon wiped out completely.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

You would see life as an evolutionary process with a grander purpose than these material events. Spiritual endeavors, artistic endeavors, relationships. etc. are not just a very short experiences lost at death but part of a continuing expanding process. I feel this gives everything we do in this life broader and longer lasting purpose and meaning.

I, personally would be more apathetic to the world, if I thought the experiences of myself and every one I know are soon wiped out completely.

"You would see life as an evolutionary process with a grander purpose than these material events. Spiritual endeavors, artistic endeavors, relationships. etc. are not just a very short experiences lost at death but part of a continuing expanding process. I feel this gives everything we do in this life broader and longer lasting purpose and meaning."

How is that suppose to make a person focus on the here and now more? Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that you are just making stuff up? Believers always skip that step, and just start going on with whatever nonsense they think sounds good. I personally want my life to have real purpose, and the only way for that to happen is to make it happen in the here and now.

 

[George-ananda]

How is that suppose to make a person focus on the here and now more?

It makes people realize a deeper purpose which infuses them with more intent and focus.

Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that you are just making stuff up? Believers always skip that step, and just start going on with whatever nonsense they think sounds good.

I am not making my beliefs up. They come from my objective study of the paranormal ecidence for an afterlife along with the teachings of eastern/Vedic spiritual traditions I have come to believe have knowledge beyond the physical,

I personally want my life to have real purpose, and the only way for that to happen is to make it happen in the here and now.

What is the 'real purpose' that you want your life to have.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

It makes people realize a deeper purpose which infuses them with more intent and focus.

I am not making my beliefs up. They come from my objective study of the paranormal ecidence for an afterlife along with the teachings of eastern/Vedic spiritual traditions I have come to believe have knowledge beyond the physical,


What is the 'real purpose' that you want your life to have.

"I am not making my beliefs up. They come from my objective study of the paranormal ecidence for an afterlife along with the teachings of eastern/Vedic spiritual traditions I have come to believe have knowledge beyond the physical,"

And I am assuming if I asked you to share this evidence, that you will come up with some excuse why you can't or tell me I have to go find it myself.

 

[Nous]

Apparently a lot of people here have a lot of faith that when your brain is no longer functioning you will no longer be bothered with consciousness. As noted on a recent thread, the evidence does not seem to support such a belief. Anyone who is able to argue, on the basis of facts that you can substantiate, that the evidence does support such a belief is encouraged to do so.

 

[Nous]

And I am assuming if I asked you to share this evidence, that you will come up with some excuse why you can't or tell me I have to go find it myself.

There is ample evidence that some people have and retain in memory complex, coherent experiences and are able to utilize logic even when their brains are non-functional. See the OPs here:
Do Realistic Interpretations of NDEs Imply Violation of the Laws of Physics?