The "End" of Religion

[Hockeycowboy]

The only sins that you are guilty of is your own.

Yes. Now that, I agree with. (I guess I missed it, sorry).

But sickness and death, due to sin, we inherited from Adam.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes. Now that, I agree with. (I guess I missed it, sorry).

But sickness and death, due to sin, we inherited from Adam.

That is the most repugnant ideas, and fortunately not all belief systems subscribe to it.

 

[kjw47]

I hadn't considered the value of the diversity that now exists. Mainly I was just thinking of the fighting and exclusivism that exists right now. Having traveled a bit, I loved those I met in Honduras, Kenya, and a very kind man at the Tokyo Airport. Israel was a mixed bag so I'll feel sorry that those who were snotty and themselves exclusivistic will get a spanking, perhaps.

What I have seen of Russian culture, I have admired. I learned that one must never make fun of Canadian Money or their beer, upon pain of a good chewing out. I once heard a Bosnian women's choir that so touched me. Yes, so much would be gone...

While there is value in diversity. There is no diversity with Gods truth. This one says that means this, another says it means something else= confusion--Not Gods will-1Cor 1:10)
God demands his true followers have-TRUTH-John 4:22-24-- Few have it.

 

[kjw47]

That is the most repugnant ideas, and fortunately not all belief systems subscribe to it.

Only those who know God and his son know Hockeycowboy is correct on that matter. Our first human parents, rebelled, it carried over to all, until Gods kingdom rule takes total control.

 

[Ellen Brown]

While there is value in diversity. There is no diversity with Gods truth. This one says that means this, another says it means something else= confusion--Not Gods will-1Cor 1:10)
God demands his true followers have-TRUTH-John 4:22-24-- Few have it.

We can not define or limit God because he sets his limits and we are not privy to them. Those who attempt to fully define God by using scripture, I do not support. I have been around Mormons who insist that God is flesh and bone, and other people insist that God is a spirit, and some even say that God is Jesus. I feel that God, being who he is can be what he wants to be. And, knowing that there are at least 60 versions of the Bible, some of which vastly differ, we won't know the truth until he reveals himself.

It is frustrating that Muslims insist they have the only true belief. Mormons also insist that they have the true word, and of course there are the Catholics that insist there is only one church ... that't the meaning of their name. Now, I see it as likely that Jehovah's Witnesses insist that they have the truth... Myself I see exclusivism as a deep sin, offensive to God. You are going to have to get in line, I suppose.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Only those who know God and his son know Hockeycowboy is correct on that matter. Our first human parents, rebelled, it carried over to all, until Gods kingdom rule takes total control.

You folk are pushing me to the point of expressing anger. The Bible says to be angry but sin not. Had I the power, I would outlaw religions that insist they are the best or only ones. Mormons believe that each person will suffer for their own sins, and not those of Adam and Eve.

You know what buddy ! I barely lived through a childhood where I was beaten several times a week just for being who I am, and then endured a 39 year marriage where I was never right, so you are not going to suck me into your collective pool of guilt. Today, I love God and Jesus the Christ as best I can. You do not get to set my limits or judge me, at all.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Ellen Brown , is this thread to be about religion or instead about beliefs in God and in afterlives?

Those are sharply different things.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is the most repugnant ideas, and fortunately not all belief systems subscribe to it.

It's genetic!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is the most repugnant ideas, and fortunately not all belief systems subscribe to it.

What's repugnant? That it's inherited?

If your Mom and Dad have cancer, are you not at greater risk to get it? It's a fact. And sin and death are inherited.

If Adam & Eve had had children before they sinned by stealing from God, they would have passed on perfect genetics to those offspring. But all their children came after, and therefore inclined to selfishness.

Can you imagine a world where no one is selfish, but think of others first?

That's the world that's coming! -- Matthew 6:9-10

 

[kjw47]

We can not define or limit God because he sets his limits and we are not privy to them. Those who attempt to fully define God by using scripture, I do not support. I have been around Mormons who insist that God is flesh and bone, and other people insist that God is a spirit, and some even say that God is Jesus. I feel that God, being who he is can be what he wants to be. And, knowing that there are at least 60 versions of the Bible, some of which vastly differ, we won't know the truth until he reveals himself.

It is frustrating that Muslims insist they have the only true belief. Mormons also insist that they have the true word, and of course there are the Catholics that insist there is only one church ... that't the meaning of their name. Now, I see it as likely that Jehovah's Witnesses insist that they have the truth... Myself I see exclusivism as a deep sin, offensive to God. You are going to have to get in line, I suppose.

Like i said--This one says this, that one says another thing x 34,000 religions claiming to be Christian= a mass of confusion.
Not with Jesus' religion= one--1Corinthians 1:10---Unity of thought( all matters of Gods truth) no division.
The facts show who is who.
From Moses on up until this very day, The Israelite religion, taught, served and worship YHVH(Jehovah) a single being God.
Taught to every bible writer, taught to Jesus his first 30 years attending the Israelite places of worship. Taught by them as well--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- 2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28--1Peter 1:3-- John at Rev 1:6--all teach--Jesus has a God-his Father.
Errors in trinity translations teach 2 different gods in those. Only Catholicism translating remained when the protestants were allowed to translate. Many errors to teach false council teachings were worded in.
The teachings of Jesus back the above facts. The encyclopedias are clear on the added pagan practices off the table of Demons( 1Cor 10:21) were added to both Easter and Christmas.

All facts back my teachers.

 

[kjw47]

You folk are pushing me to the point of expressing anger. The Bible says to be angry but sin not. Had I the power, I would outlaw religions that insist they are the best or only ones. Mormons believe that each person will suffer for their own sins, and not those of Adam and Eve.

You know what buddy ! I barely lived through a childhood where I was beaten several times a week just for being who I am, and then endured a 39 year marriage where I was never right, so you are not going to suck me into your collective pool of guilt. Today, I love God and Jesus the Christ as best I can. You do not get to set my limits or judge me, at all.

I haven't judged you. God only has one truth. The bible is clear, the true followers will become-ONE- with YHVH and his son--Living now to do Jesus' Fathers will( Matthew 7:21-- its obviously very Important for one to accomplish that. Jesus said, only those are entering his Fathers kingdom( being saved)
Many have had hard lives, and I hate watching it occur. This world has turned very sick-2Timothy 3 describes it. Jesus teaches to be no part of it.

 

[Katzpur]

I haven't judged you. God only has one truth.

In a roundabout way, kjw47, you judge everyone outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses every time you open your mouth. Everything you say ultimately gets back to "God has only one truth and it's the truth that the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Therefore, if you don't accept it, God will judge you." You just play around with words, but the way they come out, it's "I haven't judged you but God's going to and here's how He's going to it."

 

[kjw47]

In a roundabout way, kjw47, you judge everyone outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses every time you open your mouth. Everything you say ultimately gets back to "God has only one truth and it's the truth that the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Therefore, if you don't accept it, God will judge you." You just play around with words, but the way they come out, it's "I haven't judged you but God's going to and here's how He's going to it."

Actually I point all to what Jesus taught, His teachings back the JW teachers. I try to present fact.
Most are mislead by the errors in trinity translations. Those translations teach 2 different gods because of the errors. Yes manys eternal life houses are on fire. I knock. Jesus said many here at Matthew 7:21-23--One does not want to hear those words at judgement.

 

[Katzpur]

But sickness and death, due to sin, we inherited from Adam.

It's genetic!

What's repugnant? That it's inherited?

If your Mom and Dad have cancer, are you not at greater risk to get it? It's a fact. And sin and death are inherited.

Hockeycowboy, I'd like to see if we can perhaps talk about this a little more and see if ultimately we believe alike. As I've told you before, I haven't had much luck in the past trying to discuss biblical doctrine with your fellow Jehovah's Witnesses. You and I, however, have yet to have a run-in, and I hope we can continue to make some headway towards being able to at least understand the rationale behind each other's perspectives. So here's what I believe with respect to your comments above:

I don't believe that we inherited "sickness and death due to sin," from Adam, but I do believe that because we all descended from him, that we all have a strong inclination to be sinful, and a predisposition towards doing whatever it takes to get what we want. LDS scripture says that "the natural man is an enemy to God." Ever since the Fall of Adam, this has been the case. I wouldn't describe it as genetic, because I don't think it's anything in our DNA, per se, that makes us be so preconceived to be sinful. If a chromosome for sinfulness could be identified, that might be the case, but I suspect that will never happen because I don't believe there is such a chromosome. So, to me, sin and death themselves are not inherited the way the risk for cancer is, but they are intrinsically linked to mortal man. A person can be at risk for cancer, even at a high risk, and never develop the disease. But every last one of us will sin at some point in our lives, for the simple reason that we are human, and that's what humans do and have done from the time Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually I point all to what Jesus taught, His teachings back the JW teachers. I try to present fact.

You may try to, but all you really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as the Jehovah's Witnesses understand it. I try to present fact, too, but what I really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understands it. It's just that this, "The JWs are right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that is wearing on people. There is never, ever, ever any possibility in your collective minds that you might have misinterpreted something and that somebody else might have got it right. I'm all for having strong convictions; I have them myself. But the truth of the matter is that every single solitary one of us is in the same situation. We all "see through a glass darkly"; JWs are not exempt. Someday we'll all know the truth, and chances are, we'll all find out that we were right about some things and wrong about other things. The good news is that errors in doctrine are not going to be enough to cause us to be damned (or annihilated, as the case may be).

 

[viole]

Unfortunately many of the churches accuse everyone else of being the evil religion.

Well, they need to if they do not want to face self defeat.

Ciao

- viole

 

[kjw47]

You may try to, but all you really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as the Jehovah's Witnesses understand it. I try to present fact, too, but what I really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understands it. It's just that this, "The JWs are right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that is wearing on people. There is never, ever, ever any possibility in your collective minds that you might have misinterpreted something and that somebody else might have got it right. I'm all for having strong convictions; I have them myself. But the truth of the matter is that every single solitary one of us is in the same situation. We all "see through a glass darkly"; JWs are not exempt. Someday we'll all know the truth, and chances are, we'll all find out that we were right about some things and wrong about other things. The good news is that errors in doctrine are not going to be enough to cause us to be damned (or annihilated, as the case may be).

You may try to, but all you really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as the Jehovah's Witnesses understand it. I try to present fact, too, but what I really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understands it. It's just that this, "The JWs are right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that is wearing on people. There is never, ever, ever any possibility in your collective minds that you might have misinterpreted something and that somebody else might have got it right. I'm all for having strong convictions; I have them myself. But the truth of the matter is that every single solitary one of us is in the same situation. We all "see through a glass darkly"; JWs are not exempt. Someday we'll all know the truth, and chances are, we'll all find out that we were right about some things and wrong about other things. The good news is that errors in doctrine are not going to be enough to cause us to be damned (or annihilated, as the case may be).

did you ever read the 6 teachings from jesus I post?

 

[nPeace]

You may try to, but all you really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as the Jehovah's Witnesses understand it. I try to present fact, too, but what I really present is the interpretation of what Jesus taught as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understands it. It's just that this, "The JWs are right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that is wearing on people. There is never, ever, ever any possibility in your collective minds that you might have misinterpreted something and that somebody else might have got it right. I'm all for having strong convictions; I have them myself. But the truth of the matter is that every single solitary one of us is in the same situation. We all "see through a glass darkly"; JWs are not exempt. Someday we'll all know the truth, and chances are, we'll all find out that we were right about some things and wrong about other things. The good news is that errors in doctrine are not going to be enough to cause us to be damned (or annihilated, as the case may be).

Hi Katzpur
Wow. This conversation looks so inviting that I am tempted to join it, but I am going to stay out of this one, and let @Hockeycowboy converse with you.

I just want to say something though, since to me you seem like a genuine person.
You know how sometimes we make statements, as though the statement is true, and we likely do so, because we are convinced it is true?
I think people that do this, genuinely believe what they are saying. It is not meant to hurt anyone. It's just how the person feels about what they say.

Some people get upset about it (not referring to you ), but I think we should allow persons to state their convictions, because it allows us 1) to know how a person feels, or how they are thinking, 2) we then have the opportunity to prove them wrong... and being on a debate forum lends to that opportunity.

Actually I think speaking with conviction is a good thing, because not only does it let persons know your stand, but it creates conviction in others - whether that conviction leads to examining your conviction, or their own.

All of of at one point or other do make statements with conviction.
Notice for example your last statement.

The good news is that errors in doctrine are not going to be enough to cause us to be damned (or annihilated, as the case may be).

You made it with conviction, because you believe it... but is it true?
I don't believe it is, but I am glad you made it.

If persons said they have the true religion, then for me that's an opportunity to let them prove it, or prove them wrong.
It may be though that, most persons don't say it, because 1) they don't know if there is, 2) they don't believe there is, 3) they don't have it, 4) they don't know it... but the Bible says there is true religion, and amongst the hundreds of different ones, there can only be one.

So like Jesus who spoke with conviction about being the way to salvation, his apostle did the same, and his disciples do the same.
1 John 4:6
We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.

I said more than expected, but thanks for hearing me out.
Enjoy your conversation.
I'm out.

PS
I understand however, that we need to be careful about how we project ourselves.
I really try. I hope I don't mess up too much.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur
Wow. This conversation looks so inviting that I am tempted to join it, but I am going to stay out of this one, and let @Hockeycowboy converse with you.

Actually, I'm not sure @Hockeycowboy is interested in a conversation. He indicated that he liked my post, but he hasn't responded. So, let's give it a day or so, and if he doesn't come back to talk more, I'd be interested in conversing with you. What I would really like would be for either @dianaiad or @Jane.Doe to join me and talk to both you and Hockeycowboy in the team debate forum (just the four of us). This thread may not be the best place for us to have our dialogue.

I just want to say something though, since to me you seem like a genuine person.

Thank you. I do try to be.

You know how sometimes we make statements, as though the statement is true, and we likely do so, because we are convinced it is true?
I think people that do this, genuinely believe what they are saying. It is not meant to hurt anyone. It's just how the person feels about what they say.

Yes, I agree. That does happen, and as you just pointed out, I was just guilty of doing so myself.

Some people get upset about it (not referring to you ), but I think we should allow persons to state their convictions, because it allows us 1) to know how a person feels, or how they are thinking, 2) we then have the opportunity to prove them wrong... and being on a debate forum lends to that opportunity.

Actually I think speaking with conviction is a good thing, because not only does it let persons know your stand, but it creates conviction in others - whether that conviction leads to examining your conviction, or their own.

I agree. I like the words of Austin Farrer: “What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.”

All of of at one point or other do make statements with conviction.
Notice for example your last statement.

You made it with conviction, because you believe it... but is it true?
I don't believe it is, but I am glad you made it.

And that's something we could talk about, right?

If persons said they have the true religion, then for me that's an opportunity to let them prove it, or prove them wrong.
It may be though that, most persons don't say it, because 1) they don't know if there is, 2) they don't believe there is, 3) they don't have it, 4) they don't know it... but the Bible says there is true religion, and amongst the hundreds of different ones, there can only be one.

So like Jesus who spoke with conviction about being the way to salvation, his apostle did the same, and his disciples do the same.

I agree with you to some extent, but the bottom line is that I don't believe that the most skilled debater is necessarily right. Furthermore, I don't believe spiritual truths can be proven by debate. Someone may be able to make a very convincing argument for his point of view, but in the end, truth is revealed not by human beings, regardless of their eloquence and knowledge, but by the Holy Ghost. We can only learn the truth about God through Him speaking to us.

We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because I believe all of us originate with God. I also believe that most of us want to know the truth. But we do not always have equal insight into the truth. They way in which something is presented to us may not resonate with us, not because we're closed-minded or anything else. Maybe it's just the timing. Maybe the same words at a later date might be understood and received differently.

I said more than expected, but thanks for hearing me out.
Enjoy your conversation.
I'm out.

PS
I understand however, that we need to be careful about how we project ourselves.
I really try. I hope I don't mess up too much.

Not to worry. You're doing fine. I think that the real key is caring. Theodore Roosevelt is credited with having said, "Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care." I really believe that. I enjoy talking about my beliefs with other people and hearing about theirs, but the moment I sense that they're just looking to win a debate, I lose interest rather quickly. In my past experience with Jehovah's Witnesses, I things always start out very civilly. Inevitably, however, it gets to the point where I just feel as if the JW is determined to keep arguing until I give in and say, "Yup, you're right; I'm wrong." I can't do that when I believe otherwise. When I suggest that we just agree to disagree and part friends, they accuse me of backing out of the debate because I know I'm losing. I wish it weren't this way. I will generally acknowledge when my "opponent" in a debate has made some good points and that the scriptures he have used to "prove" his points could be interpreted as he has interpreted them. They just never seem to be willing to offer me the same courtesy in return. And the whole experience leaves me with a very bad taste in my mouth. Someday, I hope to be able to have a conversation with a Jehovah's Witness that does not end badly. Maybe that will happen with Hockeycowboy and maybe it will happen with you. Hope springs eternal.

 

[nPeace]

Actually, I'm not sure @Hockeycowboy is interested in a conversation. He indicated that he liked my post, but he hasn't responded. So, let's give it a day or so, and if he doesn't come back to talk more, I'd be interested in conversing with you. What I would really like would be for either @dianaiad or @Jane.Doe to join me and talk to both you and Hockeycowboy in the team debate forum (just the four of us). This thread may not be the best place for us to have our dialogue.

Thank you. I do try to be.

Yes, I agree. That does happen, and as you just pointed out, I was just guilty of doing so myself.

I agree. I like the words of Austin Farrer: “What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.”

And that's something we could talk about, right?

I agree with you to some extent, but the bottom line is that I don't believe that the most skilled debater is necessarily right. Furthermore, I don't believe spiritual truths can be proven by debate. Someone may be able to make a very convincing argument for his point of view, but in the end, truth is revealed not by human beings, regardless of their eloquence and knowledge, but by the Holy Ghost. We can only learn the truth about God through Him speaking to us.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, because I believe all of us originate with God. I also believe that most of us want to know the truth. But we do not always have equal insight into the truth. They way in which something is presented to us may not resonate with us, not because we're closed-minded or anything else. Maybe it's just the timing. Maybe the same words at a later date might be understood and received differently.

Not to worry. You're doing fine. I think that the real key is caring. Theodore Roosevelt is credited with having said, "Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care." I really believe that. I enjoy talking about my beliefs with other people and hearing about theirs, but the moment I sense that they're just looking to win a debate, I lose interest rather quickly. And this is because -- as I said before -- I don't believe that being articulate and convincing necessarily go along with being right. And if the Spirit does not confirm to me that something is true, I don't feel compelled to believe it.

Thanks.
I like the words of Austin Farrer too.

I am sure Hockeycowboy will be back in a day or two.
When he does, I'm sure we will work something out.
I'll keep this post in min as well.

...Appreciate the invitation.
Take care, until.