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Featured The Divinity of Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    If there is scripture saying that Adam is our father, please post it, because I can't find any! I've searched, "father Adam", "Adam our father", "children of Adam" and haven't come across one verse. Nor have I found any scripture that says Jesus is our Father.
     
  2. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)
    Hi
    If you remember, the Covenant was 'a covenant for a KINGDOM.' All who partake, will be RULERS with Christ, associate kings, in the HEAVENLY Kingdom of God. Recall Matthew 6:9-10. What are the first two things that Jesus taught HIS DISCIPLES to pray for?

    in the order of importance, 1st, we are told to pray for God's Name (Jehovah) to be sanctified. (Held as Holy). right? that is the most important thing that Jesus said we should pray for.
    2nd. is that we should pray for 'God's Kingdom to come' on the earth as it is in the heavenly realm. What is "God's Kingdom" that we are to pray for?
    The formation of the Kingdom of God is Jesus as God's Anointed King, and the 144,000 associate Kings, who will rule with him OVER THE EARTH. The Kingdom of God is a literal government. It is made up of persons who have 'drank the cup' as Jesus did, and have proven themselves to the death, to be faithful to the Almighty God and assisted Jesus by following His instructions to 'feed my sheep' . Who are Jesus' "sheep" ? The flock of God, over whom the 144,000 plus ONE will shepherd to the rivers of the waters of life everlasting right here on the earth. They make up the 'new heavens' (ruling authority) and the 'new earth' (human subjects who live forever on the cleansed paradise earth)

    So, tell me again, please, how the great crowd of obedient ones who follow the Christ as High Priest and Mediator on earth are not subjects to the Kingdom of God? Being 'no part of this world', they have come under the guidance of the Anointed ones of God who shepherd the flock of God today. Peter was anointed--were the 'little sheep' that of whom Jesus told Peter to 'feed' , not under the headship of Jesus, the Great Shepherd? Yes. The difference is, they do not expect to become spirit creatures and be taken into the heavenly rulership of God's Kingdom, but remain as humans and care for the earth as God originally planned when he created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden with the plan for them to be caretakers of the earth and its inhabitants, to the extent that the entire earth would eventually become a paradise of people who all worship in unity the One that Jesus called 'the Only True God' at John 17:3.
    what happens to the humans on earth who refuse to recognize God's plan for the earth, and follow the course of rebellion after Adam's example?
    see Proverbs 2:21-22
    peace
    (quote)
     
  3. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi dj
    my post was in reference to the citing of Isaiah 9:6, and the question as to how Jesus could be called our 'Eternal Father" Not that he literally 'fathered' anyone... he didn't. But he repurchased mankind by providing the ransom required to release mankind from the eternal death sentence given to Adam , before Adam has sired any children.
    Adam is the first literal 'father' of any of mankind, and everyone living effectually has descended from Adam. Take for example, the lineage of Jesus. Look at Luke 3:23-38. "...son of Adam". as it was to people who did not realize that he was actually the Son of God, and had no human as his literal father--but for the sake of record keeping, he is listed in the lineage of those of Israel, as it were, descendents of 'Israel', aka Jacob.

    then you could look at Acts 17:26, which tells us that (God) "made out of one man (Adam) every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth."
    So do you not think that would make Adam the 'father' of everyone living?" as per lineage records-- Genesis 5:3 shows Adam to be the father of Seth . Seth was not fathered by all early men, nor did all early men father sons at 130 years of age. So we can see that the Bible does not simply present Adam as an allegorical character, as some have suggested, "representing all of early mankind".

    Does this seem logical to you?

    (quote)
     
  4. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)
    Hi dj
    why don't we actually consider what the Bible says about the matter? first scripture for consideration to start off with, is John 17:5, where while in prayer to His God, Jesus says the following-" Father, glorify thou me in they own presence with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD was made" --(reading from the revised standard Bible translation)
    one could also see John 8:23, which will verify Jesus' prehuman existence in the heavenly realm with God, prior to being sent to earth to be born of a virgin girl in human form.

    THat is important to remember, when discussing the identity of the Archangel Michael. right? ok, now we have placed the entity that came to be named Jesus , as a spirit creature in the heavens 'with God' before the formation of the planet earth.
    The name of Michael appears only 5 times in the Bible. see Daniel 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9. keep those in mind.
    The name Michael means "Who is Like God?" and evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah's Sovereignty, and in destroying God's enemies.

    at 1 thessalonians 4:16, the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrrection to begin is described as "the Archangel's call". And then at Jude 9, it says that the Archangel is Michael.
    Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus' commanding call to that of someone of lesser authority?
    So we can reasonably say that the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. notice also, that the word archangel is always singular, and is never found in the plural in the scriptures. thus there is only ONE archangel.
    This is only one of several examples that indicate in the scriptures that the archangel Michael spoken of at Revelation 12:7-12, and later at Rev. 19:11-16, associates the 'standing up' of Michael to act with authority with "a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time" , would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as Heavenly Executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known by that name since his return to heaven where he resided as the glorified spirit Son of God.

    Following these scriptures, what is your opinion of the matter after considering them for yourself?

    take care
    (quote)
     
  5. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    What you have to remember is, Jesus was teaching His disciples, under the Old Covenant, to pray that way. You should know that Jesus said, "no one comes to the Father but by me", right? So, if that prayer example was for us today, why didn't Jesus teach to use His name?

    Jesus also said that there were some standing with Him that wouldn't taste death until they saw the Kingdom come, right? Are there any that were there still alive today? The Kingdom came on Pentecost, with the appearance of the Holy Spirit. So that prayer example is not for us today, but was for the people under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, Jesus' name is "above EVERY name that is named", it does not say, "every name but one', right?

    Philippians 2:9-11 (ESV Strong's) 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    From your own literature,

    *** ws chap. 1 p. 10 par. 16 The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide ***
    Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.

    Ask your teachers, it's what they say. Jesus is only mediator for the 144,000.

    The "great crowd of obedient ones" aren't even part of spiritual Israel. The rank and file witness get their blessing or hope or whatever they get from being "associated" with the 144,000. Jesus is nothing to the rank and file witness, all they have is the anointed.

    *** ws chap. 1 p. 11 par. 18 The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide ***
    18 In ancient times, there were non-Jews, such as the Nethinim and the sons of non-Israelite servants of Solomon, who were associated with the nation of Israel. (Ezra 2:43-58; 8:17-20) Similarly today, there are men and women who are wholly dedicated to God through Jesus Christ but who are not spiritual Israelites. They are, however, associated with the remnant of spiritual Israel because of dedicating themselves to Jehovah God through Jesus Christ, “who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:6) Today, these far outnumber the 144,000 spiritual Israelites, who are to inherit the heavenly Kingdom.

    Your teachers put themselves above Jesus! They have Jesus, the rank and file have the 144,000, not Jesus.
     
  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Staying out of government isn't, "being no part of the world". When you pay for cable service, you are supporting the porn they sell. When you buy gas for your car, you are supporting the greed of the oil industry. There's no way you can live in this world and not be part of it. Jesus never said not to be part f the world.
     
  8. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    When you enter a court room, who is it that announces the judge? The judge him/herself? Another judge? Or just a bailiff, a lessor authority? Just because it says, "with the voice of an archangel" doesn't mean that that voice is of Jesus. When a King enters, it's customary to have a servant announce Him, correct? The King wouldn't announce Himself and then come in.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    Jesus is going to announce Himself? It also says, "with the sound of the trumpet of God" does that mean Jesus is the trumpet, or will He be blowing the trumpet also?
     
  9. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    None of those scriptures prove Jesus and Michael are one and the same. One can go thru the Bible, pick and choose verses, and make them say whatever they want it to say.

    It's amazing how you can deny the Trinity because the Bible doesn't have the word "Trinity" in it, you deny Jesus is God because you can't find a verse that says it, but without a verse that says Jesus is Michael, you can cherry pick a few verses to say Jesus is just an angel. Simply amazing!
     
  10. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote) notice the scripture you are quoting here. WHO exalted whom? And notice also, please, that Paul and Timothy are sending greetings to the Philippian congregation who are "in union with Christ Jesus", and vs 2 sends them peace from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep that in mind as you go to vs. 5-8 of chapter 2. They are admonishing the Phillippians to "keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure , namely, that he should be equal to God, No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and became human. More than that, when he came to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake for this very reason God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him a name that is above every other name."
    Who gave Jesus the name above all others of God's sons? Jesus never gave a thought to trying to be above His Father, God. Mankind with their false doctrines have tried to teach such a lie, but it doesn't fit at all with the truth of the Scriptures. Those false notions are derived from the enemy of Jesus who try to lead people away from the truth that is carried out all throughout the Bible. No one is ever above God. Nor is anyone ever equal to God. There is only ONE God Almighty. Singular. If he was divided up or shared his position as the Almighty God, then He would no longer BE "almighty', for that is the meaning of the word. The Bible got it right, there is only ONE Almighty God, the Father and God of Jesus, whose name alone is Jehovah. see Psalm 83:18 in the older versions of the KJV.

    Now please, notice vs 11 of the scripture you have quoted. God has placed Jesus as His Anointed King over all things, Jesus is second only to His God and Father, Jehovah. Why does it say that everyone should do obeisance to Jesus Christ? "to the glory of God the Father". All things are for the Glory to go to God Almighty, the Creator of all things, and the only One deserving of our full devotion and obedience.
    Even Jesus had to 'learn obedience' . see Hebrews 5:8.

    Hope this helps.
    (quote)
     
  11. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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  12. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    The difference being, we go by what the Bible actually teaches.

    Not what someone made up and decided to feed the lie to all who would suck it up.

    sorry, but that's the fact of the matter, sadly.
    May you find peace
    (quote)
     
  13. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Where do you see, "above every name of God's sons"?

    In your mind, if you have "ALL" of something, what does anyone else have?

    Really? You're trained to blindly believe and follow what your 'slave' teaches, whether you accept it, understand it, or believe it. Not one witness is being truthful when they go to a door and tell people they have the true message of the Bible. You can go to a door today, have a discussion with someone, leave, go to a meeting or get a watchtower publication on Sunday and get "new light" and what you discussed with that person today becomes obsolete. Witnesses never know when what they are taught will change and yet, they suck it up with eagerness.
     
  14. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    The judge himself....will enter the court room with a cry of command (ALL RISE).....with the voice of a bailiff.

    What's your point?
     
  15. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote) actually, the opposite is true in reality. But I know that is what those who simply want to attempt to perpetuate the lie say about us. It is not easy being a witness, let me tell you. We have to prove to ourselves thru study and experience what is Truth. No one can do that for us, and while the Faithful and discreet slave class highlights topics and instructs as imperfect men depending on the guidance of God's Holy Spirit to help them discern the right course, they are not perfect people. No one on earth is perfect. We all sin and make mistakes. But we do the best to be obedient and do the work that Jesus has assigned to His followers in the times we live in. check out matthew 24:13-14, and Matthew 28:19-20, and see if you measure up to those requirements. (?) yes, that is a Biblical requirement that is being accomplished by volunteer workers who subject themselves to the instructions from the Bible and do the work assigned to the people who bear the Name of the Divine One. Now, as the scriptures have prophesied, and it has always been written in the scriptures-- in the last days, the 'light would get brighter', as Jehovah shines the light of truth on His earthly organization. Things as it was in Daniel's day, were not to be understood accurately until 'the time of the end'. see Daniel 12:4.
    progress has been made in understanding and things are made more clear as to what Jehovah's Inspired Word is telling us today. Prior to this, mankind was not ready to accept the accurate understanding, and the worldly society had not yet progressed to the point of needing to get the sense of some current events and how they define Bible information. We are perpetual Bible students, and will forever be students of God's Word, and are not stuck in the 3rd century with the attitudes of people under the Apostate development of the false 'church' and the dark ages where they kept people from reading of having access to what the Bible teaches, in order to keep people under their control. We see that God has shined light of truth and has liberated millions of people who were caught in the snare of the apostasy, so let the the light continue to shine brighter each day, as God opens up the understanding of His Words and how we can benefit ourselves by listening to Him and following His Anointed ones who shepherd the flock of God on earth today.
    Despite the continual attacks of the 'roaring lion seeking to devour' all whom he can, avoiding the traps of 'the great birdcatcher' who desires to mislead the entire inhabited earth, as he knows his time is short, and he has great anger at those who serve the Great God Jehovah, and we are in a spiritual war, the entire earth is involved in. Time is very short, friend, use is wisely. Search for the true God while He may yet be found.

    Psalm 37:29

    (quote)
     
  16. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi dj
    please do not attempt to compare the Biblical account with the court of a particular segment of society from the earth and their judicial rituals. read the post in it's entirety, and consider the Bible passages cited, if you are truly seeking an accurate Biblical understanding on a matter, or an answer to your questions.

    thanks

    (quote)
     
  17. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    I accept the fact that my posts may not open the eyes of current indoctrinated witnesses, and what I post is not intended as an attack on witnesses, I just want to get the truth out to help anyone who is contemplating becoming a witness. Witnesses do not tell the people they are recruiting the whole truth, and that's my purpose. I have studied with a witness for almost 2 years, I've been to meetings, I have the 2014/2015 WT library CD with all of the orgs literature, from 1950 until present. I have talked to many witnesses, I know so much more about how your org works and what they believe then you think I do!


    Like this comment right here. According to your teachers, Jesus didn't assign the preaching work to all witnesses, but only to the elite 144,000, and they subcontract out to the "other sheep". When someone joins your org, they become property of the 'slave' and therefore have to do the work that was assigned to the 'slave'.

    *** w07 4/1 pp. 24-25 par. 14 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***
    14 The humble submission of the other sheep to the anointed members of spiritual Israel was foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah: “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, “Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God.”’” (Isaiah 45:14) Symbolically, the other sheep today walk behind the anointed slave class and its Governing Body, following their leadership. As “unpaid laborers,” the other sheep willingly expend their physical strength and their resources in support of the worldwide preaching work that Christ assigned to his anointed followers on earth.—Acts 1:8; Revelation 12:17.

    Jesus assigned the work to the anointed, but, as "unpaid laborers" YOU have to "expend YOUR strength, YOUR resources, to do that work that was assigned to them!

    They say that the "other sheep" walk behind the anointed slave class AND it's governing body". But I know, and assume you do to, that the "anointed slave class" IS the governing body, since the "slave class" is limited to the 7 men in New York, which is the governing body. In past teachings, the "slave class" included all 144,000 anointed, but "new light" came and it was reduced to only the 7 men.
     
  18. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Jesus use the physical world to explain the Spiritual? Yes He did, all the time!
     
  19. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    What's the difference between "being guided" by the Holy Spirit and being inspired by the Holy Spirit?

    Why do witnesses and their 'slave' put so much emphasis on their 'slave' being "imperfect men"? Every one of the Bible writers were "imperfect men" and yet, they got it right! They never had to make "corrections" on any of their teachings.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I find no scriptural support that "The Word" is Michael the Archangel. The Book of Hebrews makes it quite clear:

    Heb 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The Son Exalted Above Angels
    5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father,And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” 7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”

    The understanding is "that angels worship HIM" not another Agnel
     
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