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Featured The Divinity of Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    "I'll be interested in your comments, but be gentile as I do bruise easily. :)"

    LOL - I will pardon the pun.


    These are great questions and I certainly don't want to give canned answers. And I am certainly not the saged apologist of the century :D (I'm adding this after some typing, I think we will have to break this up into many parts leaving Paul for later because one answer brings another question and I think this is way too great in scope)

    Your first question is a great one and I'm not sure if I can even answer it as it truly is hard to wrap my finite mind around this concept. The canned answer (which has some truth to it) is that God is God and who are we to say what God can and cannot do.

    In my understanding, I can understand the "why" since God is not a man that He should lie. After God gave His creation to mankind, He would become a liar if He operated outside of His established spiritual laws. Thus the necessity of coming in a human form.

    (IMV) But the how? Help me Moses! (Who God spoke to face to face).

    But looking at this in a broader sense. First, people correctly see a sacrifice of a lamb in a terminal sense or in the sense of complete cessation of life, but is that true of humans when they die? Does the spirit die? I hold to the position that the spirit doesn't die. So I would see the sacrifice of Jesus is in reference to body but not the cessation of His Spirit.

    How can God inhabit a body? How does He fill the Tabernacle of Moses? How does He abide in between the Cherubim above the Mercy Seat of atonement? Apparently, He can fill any place He wants so, at the least, I can't deny the possibility that He can fill a body, if He so chooses, since He apparently filled other places. (I speak through my process of thinking and not establishing that whatever I say must be absolutely true). How He does it, only He knows.

    So it isn't "God sacrificing to God" in a literal sense but rather the carrying of our sins to a far away place by the placing of the sin of mankind onto Himself through the legal entrance as a man and "nasa" it away by placing absorbing the consequences of our spiritual bankruptcy onto Himself:

    bare (nasa) to lift, bear up, carry, take
    1. (Qal)
      1. to lift, lift up
      2. to bear, carry, support, sustain, endure
      3. to take, take away, carry off, forgive
    How does it please Him?

    I can only relate that in my human sense of the restoring of relationship. When I see two estranged people reunite in the marriage, it pleases me. When someone comes and says "I haven't heard from my child in decades and then we pray and in a week they call and the relationship is restored, it brings joy to my soul.

    It doesn't seem to far out there that estranged mankind which God brought back unto Himself in the restoring of relationship would please Him. (if you want to make Adam and Eve a symbolic representation of mankind, the statement remains the same)

    Yes, human sacrifice is forbidden. But in what sense? Is there any precedent in the Tanakh? Is there a picture of what God wanted to do for His creation?

    Certainly the sacrificing of oneself for the life and benefit of another doesn't violate to the command of not sacrificing a human. Our lives are ours to do as we wish.

    I also know that whatever point one gives, there will be a counter point that says no. Even in the Exodus, as they viewed the fruits of the promised land, 2 spies said "we can do it" and the counter point of 10 said "no we can't". So I only have my viewpoint whether right or wrong with no harsh retort if someone says I'm wrong.

    I do find that the story is Abraham and Isaac was purposeful by YHWH in intent and purpose and it was a God request of a sacrifice of a human. For me, these are the pictures that God wanted us to see and here are just a few:
    1. Adam was created by God through His life-giving breath (man had nothing to do with it), Isaac was created by God through the resurrection power of His life-giving breath (man had nothing to do with it), the body of Jesus was created by God through the power of His life-giving breath of His word (God spoke and it was done for no words of God are void of power to accomplish what He says).
    2. As the promised seed of Abraham, I believe that Abraham trusted that God was going to resurrect Isaac because God said that Isaac was the promised seed. It was a request by God for man to make a sacrifice! Yes, God did stop him but said "Now I know that your really believe because you were going to do it" (Paraphrased) My personal understanding is that God requires a seed, a sacrifice for Him to respond. To the widow of Sarepta, food for the prophet for the oil and meal not to cease. For David to stop a plague, "I must sacrifice something that costs me". For the door of Jesus to come into the earth, a willingness of the Father of Faith to believe in the resurrection of the seed that only God could create.
    3. A ram in substitution for Isaac, Jesus in substitution for us
    4. Caught in a thicket of thorns by the horns of his head, Jesus with a crown of thorn on his head... the thorns and thistles produced by the sin of Adam.
    5. it is said that the same place of the intended sacrifice of Isaac is the same place where Jesus died. Certainly "laughter" has returned when relationship with YHWH is restored.
    So many other things but suffice to say that there is precedent for a replacement of what we would call a human sacrifice. Not US sacrificing a human being but rather Jesus sacrificing himself for "no greater love hath a man than that he give his life for another". Not a forced sacrifice for "No man takes my life, I give it freely". A different kind of sacrifice.
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I always teach.... "the greatest words you can use is 'I don't have the slightest clue'" especially when there isn't any scripture that I know of that would answer the question.

    Then again, as I said before, in the Christian sense, do we really need it? We can pray for each other. If they can, they probably already are without even asking. We have covenant promises we hold to and, as it is said of Abraham, we believe that He that promised is able to fulfill it.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA! TRUE! TRUE!

    HOWEVER, just because stiff-necked Christians want to say "because I am an ear and you look like the liver, I have no need of you" doesn't mean we don't belong to the same body. We remain... human. Like Israel fighting Judah and Judah fighting Israel... why on earth didn't they believe they were one.

    you are right... there are symbolisms etc. Forgive my shortcomings in expressing thought. I was talking more along the lines of that which was not symbolism. If He said He is YHWH Rapha - that heals, then I tested it. If He said I AM Jireh, then I need to see Him provide etc.

    LOL... this is what I mean when I say one answer leads to many questions. I would say culture "infusion" can change meaning "grass and weed" comes to mind -- so stop smoking it.

    SHHHHHHHH!! Do you want the whole world to know what we are talking about? Let's keep it between you and me1 ;D
     
  3. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Then why am I reading this? Such a disappointment. :(

    I read this several times and I can't make heads nor tail of this, mostly why the "human form" was supposedly a necessity. Where do we see human sacrifices in the Tanakh other than with Isaac, which was stopped?

    Actually, it appears that he didn't, but I'll let this slide (the "face" part).

    But the sacrifices of animals and grain did't involve "spirit". It was viewed as returning something back to God that He provided for us with in the first place to show our appreciation of His gifts. In that process, we sort of "buy back" a favor of having our sins forgiven. Sorry to sound so capitalistic. :rolleyes:

    He can also probably fit into a the "body" of a super-angel, but you didn't like that idea. :p

    Aha! Remember what I said about not taking these narrative literally but possibly figuratively? I'm winning over a convert!!! Can I draw up the papers and where you can send you donations?

    Jesus being the "new Adam"-- Adam sinned and Jesus took it away.

    Different types of sacrifices though, but I'll cut ya some slack on this.

    Your conversion is becoming more manifest-- I'm getting really excited. Pretty soon you may even be using the word "symbolic"! I just can't wait!
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Oh, you're getting closer and closer to my oft posted line of "I don't know", so you might want to reconsider what you're doing.

    I never used to believe in "spiritual connections" (or whatever one may call it) until something happened over the last two years that I cannot explain in any other way. I have had to rethink a lot of things since then, and you may have noticed a change in the orientation of many of my posts over the last year especially.

    Because then we wouldn't be Jews.

    Ya, I have to apologize to my wife for my shortcomings as well.

    I don't need weed to be goofy.

    Done! And I think we got 'em surrounded so they'll never know what hit 'em. When they least expect it, ...
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    LOL... My most used phrase... "The more I learn, the more I realize i know nothing at all".

    However, what I do know... I KNOW!

    As a matter of fact, I was beginning to doubt my memory of what you had said in the past because it seemed to be different! :)

    LOL... May the LORD bless you and keep you and may His face shine upon you... especially in your humor!
     
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  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It's very close to Confucius' statement (paraphrased) "the more you know, the more you know you really don't know". Wow, you and Confucius on the same page! Does this combo come with an egg roll?

    And much the same to you, my friend, as I always enjoy discussing things with you...

    even when you're wrong...

    which is most of the time.

    ;)
     
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  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Why does my wife even listen to me? :D

    Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion
    Psalms 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
    Ps 115;16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

    I think there is an important issue here. In YHWH's gift of free will to man, He also gave the earth to mankind to have dominion over it. (My usual example is when I gave my car to my son when he went to college. It was all mine, but when I gifted it to him, he assumed full responsibility over it and I had to release mine).

    In other words, God omnipotently decided to let man in the drivers seat. To exercise dominion in the earth, it had to be as man. Starting in Genesis 3, God would basically only operate through covenant where man had to be part of it because it was man's dominion.

    It was man who ushered in sin. It HAD to be man to usher it out, to be legal and binding, and thus the necessity of a corporal being coming into existence through the womb of a woman. It is the legal way to enter into the world and the Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    The first Adam lost the battle but the second Adam won the war.

    LOL... you are such a literalist! One day I will win you over to symbolism! YHWH was just saying that He was coming to where Moses was and filling that place with His presence where others would only know through dreams etc.

    I am definitely going to learn you! :D

    The sacrifices are symbolic of what God was going to do in the person of Jesus Christ. Such a literalist I tell you... such a literalist!

    :D That's because angels were a lower class than Adam and Eve and couldn't remain solvent.

    Who... meeee? :mad: NEVER!!! Wait a minute... did I use those words above? HEEEEELLLP! I'M BEING INFECTED!
     
    #409 KenS, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    :D There is a clown in every group. Always joking around!
     
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  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I still can't figure out how that has anything to do with the issue of human sacrifice, but maybe my brain is just having a very slow day at work.

    I've been called worse by better. :p

    Not so fast Speedy as angels were believed to come from at least two different sources, with one being a form of a mini-manifestation of God (but not fully God) and the other from some select humans who were upgraded by God. All humans, and I would assume Adam & Eve were two of them, were viewed as being lower than the angels, especially since it was viewed that the angels were often God's labor supply.

    Best thing that ever happened to ya, I'm sure. Next I'll teach ya how to speak Yooperese.

    BTW, do you know what a Yooper seven-course meal is?


    Answer: A pasty and a six-pack.
     
  12. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Isn't that a, for want of a better term, article of clothing, worn by certain dancing ladies in certain types of venues in certain types of locations that consider its use means that said certain ladies are not in the all together. (Not that I would know from personal experience... but so I've been told.)
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And that's what makes 'em so tasty!
     
  14. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    You picked the wrong one. He's the straight man. You've seen our act.
     
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  15. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    LOL... Only that we have to change our mindset on "human sacrifice" (in the sense that we are taking a human and sacrificing them as did Mosha, King of Moab.) But rather the decision to have no greater love than to lay one's life down for another, the sacrifice of laying one's life down for another.

    The message for Abraham, my Father of the faith, was that a substitute was going to lay down his life for me. It is my belief that Abraham saw the day of Jesus on the same mountain, perhaps a stone's throw away in location

    :mad: DID YOU JUST SAY THAT I'M THE WORST OF THE BEST? :D

    OK... let me rephrase as I am still the literalist that when I can read it in scriptures that wasn't stated as symbolism, then what changes is my opinion. Anyone can construct a thought or a viewpoint outside of what is black and white. (I realize that this is my way of thinking since I have already determined that scripture is inspired and when it is black and white--interpretation is not necessary. Everything else is open to opinions with interpretation and is acceptable)

    We do know that man was made in His likeness and in His image. I do not find where it says that angels were made in His likeness and in His image.

    I agree that after sin, man became lower than the angels but they were none the less charged with serving man.

    Psalms 104:4 He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants, and again in Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. (to find the context of it being about angels.)

    Because I do believe the NT understanding of the Tanakh, I trust Paul when he said, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?" - a greater being judges the lesser.

    I looked it up because I had no idea... I'm hungry!
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Got it-- finally!

    I really can't see that as it's too much of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h for my blood. BTW, nor do I see Jesus in the tea leaves either.;)

    NO, THE BEST OF THE WORST-- D A H !

    Who made 'em? If they're in heaven with God, doesn't that tell us somethin'.

    BTW, do you believe in "original sin"? Just curious.

    Maybe because angels may have some free-will whereas humans who end up in heaven won't? Or maybe that Paul is using a bit of hyperbole to make a point? Since I don't see the scriptures--any scriptures-- as being inerrant, I also am not going to view anything that Paul may have said as being inerrant. After all, he seems to predict the return of Jesus was eminent but that didn't seem to work out so well.

    Ya, they're popular here in da U.P. because of all the mines here. They were baked, wrapped in newspaper, and taken down into the mines whereas they would at least stay warm until lunch or dinner. They are a Cornish dish, and there's no single recipe for them.

    When I make 'em, I use store-bought crust (a heresy here), some beef in small cubes, onion, potato, rutabaga, salt & pepper-- although I usually make them in a pie form. However, most of the time I use 3-4 eggs instead as I'm really not very fond of beef.

    Hey, I'll send ya one through the e-mail!
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    :)

    WOW! You are a hard nut to crack! :D

    Not a problem! I am wearing glasses and maybe I need another check up! But "tea leaves"? My wife's family left that along with the tarot cards and the devil worship a long time ago. Interestingly enough, my wife never participated in it and when they were at a seance, the medium said "there is one person who is impeding the connection". She raised her hand and said "That's me, so long!" and promptly left.

    :D

    Did I say that God didn't make them? :) I just affirmed that they are God's labor force but man, in his sinless state, it just a little higher than the angels. (However, I don't want to tangle with them)


    I don't subscribe to the position that a baby has an original sin that condemns them. I believe in an age of accountability--and that age can depend on the person. The one thing that I can subscribe to is that sooner or later, people will sin on purpose.

    Maybe.

    Certainly, a big difference is that angels never needed to make atonement for sin. Man did. But... humans won't have free will in Heaven?
    At least send me the recipe via email... it looks great. (or a Metis approve site)
     
    #417 KenS, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  18. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And painful.

    How do you know that?

    I don't know. [I have no belief in heaven anyway, although I won't go as far as saying it couldn't exist]

    It'll have to wait until Monday as I'm really strapped for time today and have a busy weekend. Please respond to this post so I remember to send it to you then.

    Have a most blessed weekend, my friend.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I don't have the time today but will get back with you on Monday. Please respond to this post as a reminder, and have yourself a great weekend.
     
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