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Featured The Divinity of Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There are some theologians who believe that Jesus, who clearly cannot be "the Father", may have been like a super-angel who voluntarily allowed himself to come down from heaven, live as a human, thus allowing himself to be crucified for the forgiveness of sins. Any thoughts on that?
     
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  2. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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  3. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    And why did they instigate the death of Jesus? Because they denied His deity, much like the witnesses do! Witnesses are more like the ones you are describing, because they deny the deity of Jesus.

    How can you say I spread lies about the witnesses? Everything I have said, I back up with quotes from the witnesses own literature.
     
  4. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi Ken

    searching out translations, it appears that the Greek interlinear translates the passage a bit differently. The choice by some translators may have been tainted by the false doctrine of the trinity, presuming that Jesus was to be worshipped as God, which is not accurate.

    Hebrews 1:5 "To which one for he said sometime of the angels Son of me ar you , I today I have generated you, and again I shall be to him into Father, and he will be to me into Son. (6) Whenever but again he should lead in the Firstborn (one) into the being inhabited (earth) , he is saying And let do obeisance toward him all angels of God."

    There is a difference between obeisance and worship.
    IN the scriptures, it basically means 'bow down', and such bowing might be done as an act of respect for a king, a high priest, a prophet, or a person of authority. all of those examples can be found in the Bible. Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible , but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God.

    So they could have done obeisance without actually doing an act of worship.

    peace to you

    (quote)
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Certainly one can get many positions from theologians.

    The position suggested above would cause many questions that, IMO, would cause more problems than be the answer to any questions:

    1. If we are to judge angels, how can an angel judge us? 1 Corin. 6:3
    2. If angels are called to worship God, why would other angels worship another angel? Heb 1:6
    3. Theologically speaking, if man was created like unto YHWH, how can an angel pay for the sins of all of mankind and remain solvent?
    4. If angels are called to minister to mankind, why would mankind minister to an angel? Heb 1:14
     
  6. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I disagree (certainly you are approaching this with the eyeglasses of your personal doctrine)


    Very specifically it says don't do obeisance to angels:

    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    Both words are proskuneo and very specifically says don't do it.
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Let me play devil's advocate and give you "the answers"! :cool:
    Because he's a super-angel given a special duty and a special designation by God.
    Jesus is not to be worshiped as he said that he "came to serve, not to be served". Worship only should be to God, regardless as to how one may feel Jesus relates to "the Father". Praise Jesus, yes; worship him, no.

    How can sacrificing a bull or a sheep forgive sins? Answer: because God designated them as such, which He also did with Jesus later.

    Because the Boss selected him to be above the other angels.

    There's your answers, and you can take them to the bank...
    or whatever.
     
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  8. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    :D

    Except there is no scriptural support for that.

    I think the problem that people encounter is when they equate The Word as being the same as when The Word was made flesh. It is a parenthetical suspension of the person of The Word that is restored after his resurrection.

    The most common word for worship in the Greek is Proskuneo. When Satan tempted Jesus and told him to fall down and worship him, Jesus responded "10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

    I would be hard pressed to say that this word is limited to just giving a casual honor with the emphatic response of Jesus.

    The same word is used when many came and worshipped Jesus. Yes, his purpose wasn't to come to be worshipped, but he never told anyone not to.

    Yes... but the question is "who is Jesus". There still isn't any support for him being an angel although "God designating" someone is.

    To quote a student of Gamaliel:

    7 But into the Kodesh HaKodashim only the Kohen Gadol goes, and only once a year, and not without DAHM (blood) which he offers for himself and for the shiggot haAm (unintentional sins of the people).
    8By this the Ruach Hakodesh signifies that the Derech into the Kodesh HaKodashim has not yet been revealed while the Mishkan, the hachitzon (the outer one), is still standing,
    9 Which is a mashal for the present time. Accordingly both minchot and zevakhim are being offered which cannot fulfill with respect to the matzpun (conscience) of the worshiper,
    10 Als (since) they deal only with okhel and mashkeh (drink) and different tevilot, external regulations being imposed until the time of the Tikkun (Restoration).
    11 But when Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach came as the Kohen Gadol of the coming tovot (good things), he entered through the Mishkan Gadol, the greater and more perfect Mishkan, not made with hands, that is, not of this B’ri’ah (Creation);
    12 Not through the dahm of se’irim (goats) and of agalim (bulls) but through his own dahm [Isa 52:15] he entered the Kodesh HaKodashim once and for all, having secured for us the Geulah Olamim.
    13 For if the dahm of se’irim (goats) and parim (young bulls) and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have become tum’a (uncleanness), if this dahm sets apart for kedushah for the tohorah (purification) of the basar,
    14 By how much more will the dahm of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach who through the eternal Ruach Hakodesh offered himself without MUM (defect, VAYIKRA 22:20) to G-d, by how much more will his DAHM (Isa 52:15) purify our matzpun (conscience) from ma’asim metim (dead works) in order to serve the Elohim Chayyim.
    15 And for this reason Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach is the Metavekh of a Brit Chadasha in order that those who are HaKeru’im (the Called ones) may receive the nachalat olam (eternal inheritance) of the Havtachah (Promise), because a mavet, a kapparat hapeysha’im has taken place that gives them pedut (ransom for redemption, Geulah) from peysha’im (transgressions, Isa 53:5) that were committed under HaBrit HaRishonah.
    16 For where there is a brit or a tzavva’a (will), it is aizen (well founded, incontrovertible) that the histalkus (passing) of the one who made it must be established.
    17 For a Brit, a tzavv’a (covenant, will) is valid only when Bnei Adam have died, for it is never validly executed as long as the ba’al tzavva’a (testator, person who makes the will) lives.
    18 Hence the Brit HaRishonah was not cut without DAHM. [Ex 24:8]
    19 For when every mitzvah had been spoken by Moshe Rabbeinu to all the Am Brit according to the Torah, he took the dahm of se’irim and of agalim with mayim and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the sefer itself and all the people,
    20 Saying, "HINEI DAHM HABRIT ("This is the blood of the Covenant"—Ex 24:8) which Hashem commanded you.
    21And in the same way he sprinkled both the Mishkan and also all the k’lei haSherut (vessels of service in the Mishkan) with dahm.
    22 Indeed, according to the Torah, almost everything is metohar (purified) by dahm, and without a kapporah by means of shefach dahm (the shedding of blood) there is no selicha (forgiveness).
    23 Therefore, it was necessary for the tavnit (pattern, copy, SHEMOT 25:40) of the things in Shomayim be metohar (purified) with these, but the things of Shomayim themselves with better zevakhim than these.
    24 For Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach did not enter into a Kodesh HaKodashim made by human hands, a mere TAVNIT (pattern, copy Ex 25:40) of the true Kodesh HaKodashim, but Moshiach entered into Shomayim itself, now to appear before the face of Hashem for us.
    25 Nor was it so that he may offer himsef again and again, as the Kohen Gadol enters the Kodesh HaKodashim yearly with dahm not his own;
    26 For then it would have been necessary for him to suffer often from the hivvased tevel (foundation of the world); but now, once at the Ketz HaOlamim, he has appeared to put away averos (sins) by the korban of himself (Isa 53:10).
    27 And in as much as it is appointed for men to die once and after this HaMishpat [Yom HaDin],
    28 So he, having been offered up once in order that HU NASA CHET RABBIM ("he bore away the sin of many" YESHAYAH 53:12) and shall appear sheynit (a second time) for Yeshu’at Eloheinu without reference to chet for those who expectantly khakeh levo’o shel (await the arrival of) Moshiach.

    I would have to defer to the understanding of a student of Gamaliel:


    Yes... but did the Boss select an angel? or The Word.


    LOL... but which bank?
     
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  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There is no scriptural support for any view on that other than there's a connection between "the Father" and Jesus.

    The early church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries had many debates on exactly what this affiliation is and there was no consensus. Two excellent books that cover this in some detail are "Tradition In the Early Church" by Hanson and "How Jesus Became God" by Ehrman, and both authors do not draw any "final answer" on this question. It's also one of the reasons why Catholicism labeled it "the mystery of the trinity".
    We gotta be careful here because how one may define "worship" may vary. Are statements of praise "worship", for example? I mention this because the early church did believe in "the communion of saints", therefore it is perfectly allowable to pray through Jesus or a saint as long as the prayer ultimately is for God, and it's allowable to praise Jesus or a saint as if they're still alive. It was perceived that there was no insurmountable division between the church living and the church dead.

    Since there were many students with many different ideas, I can't defer to any of them.

    We don't know, but why not? We could ask the same question as to why Jesus was also "true man" and why God chose to go that route?

    Me'tis Bank & Trust me.
     
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  10. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    BUT!! there is certainly more on my side than a super angel's side.

    Not going to argue that there is a mystery point. I took a class once, on this mystery. The moment that you would say that there is just "God", we would come to a place that there are three parts. Just when we were about to nail there are three parts, we would find that there is one God.

    That's why I like it simple. :D

    God has made us in His image and in His likeness... and I am one but have three distinct parts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D (not sticking it to you)

    WOW! Talking about getting into the thick of it.

    Yes, there are many words for praise and worship even in the Hebrew.

    But I came to the conclusion that I would rather have a direct line to YHWH than going through Moses or a saint.

    I think IMHO the issue is who can pay for sins and still remain solvent. Likening it to businesses, a company can buy a bankrupt company if it can absorb the liabilities and still remains solvent. My position is that an angel can't absorb the sins of all humanity and remain solvent. IMV, that would make the angel YHWY and would be deserving of worship ( a no no).
    You literally had me laughing. So enjoy your humor!!
     
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  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm gonna shoot the scorekeeper.

    Stubborn as a mule, and ya probably look like one.:p

    That's because I'm married to an Italian and consume a lot of olive oil that leaks though my pores.

    Then why go through Jesus?

    Well, we definitely see this differently because I don't see this "last sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins" in a literalistic manner. But if used symbolically, it may. I can explain if you want me to.

    See above. Plus if that angel is given that power by God, then why not? To me, that seems more logical than having God sacrificed to God.
     
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  12. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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  13. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)
    LOL , Metis. very entertaining!
    I particularly like the 'more logical than having God sacrificed to God' comment. Makes sense to me....

    Thanks for the chuckles.

    (quote)
     
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  14. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi Ken
    number 3 begs the question: How much was the ransom? What did God require under the Law of Moses, for an offense against another fellow human? Was it not 'like for like"? Or, the exact amount that was taken, that had to be returned in order to 'right the wrong''? When Adam sinned against God, what sentence did God pass on him? yes, the death sentence. So everyone who descended from Adam would be born with the sin of Adam in their members, right? So why has every human since then had to die? It 's the Law. So what has to happen to free mankind from the eternal sentence of death? "the same amount that Adam lost--like for like".

    Jesus’ sacrifice is the means by which God delivers, or saves, humankind from sin and death. The Bible refers to the shed blood of Jesus as a ransom price. (Ephesians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:18, 19)
    Thus, Jesus said that he came “to give his life a ransom for many.”—Matthew 20:28, King James Version.

    n the Bible, the term “ransom” involves the following three elements:

    1. It is a payment.—Numbers 3:46, 47.

    2. It brings about a release, or redemption.—Exodus 21:30.

    3. It corresponds to the value of what is paid for, or covers it.
    Consider: How do these elements apply to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? How will all of mankind who puts faith in the merits of Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice to God, benefit when the full application of the sacrifice will be applied to mankind?

    How would you answer?



    (quote)
     
  15. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Someone said "Metis is a lousy shot".

    Ahhhhh... but God DID use a mule to speak to Balaam :D

    :D Praying through is different to praying to. He's my eternal High-priest as we follow His advise, "Pray to the Father in my name".

    Please do... always interested in what you have to share.

    :D Sometimes God doesn't want to fit into our logic.

    Gideon's 300 wasn't logical in man's perspective at the moment it happened. Retrospect, one can understand.

    Of course, we are talking theologically and thus, like the sages of Jewish thought, it is wonderful to agree to disagree--even vehemently as we leave as brothers when we are finished arguing. :D

    I find it logical for God to come as human flesh on multiple points (in retrospect--illogical at the beginning). Certainly His ways are higher than our ways and His thought way beyond ours.

    Jesus said that that only the thief doesn't enter into the gate of sheep (if we take the position that we are the sheep of His pasture). God gave the keys to the world to mankind. To enter into the world by any other method is to make Him a liar... thus The Word came as flesh.

    PS... just saw a wonderful true story movie on youtube called "Have a little faith" -- an inspiring movie about a Jewish Rabbi, a pastor and a Jewish reporter.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I have three kids to prove otherwise.

    But notice what you said above, namely that you are praying through Jesus. Hey, you're maybe more Catholic than you thought.:D

    BTW, do you believe in "the communion of saints", both living and dead? Can the living pray for the dead? the dead for the living? curious.

    I never have viewed the scriptures-- any scriptures-- as being inerrant. There are way too many "variations" within many of the scriptural narratives for me to believe that.

    To me, the scriptures tend to reflect that values and mores of the culture they developed in, and to the extent they may be divinely inspired I simply cannot say as it's well beyond my pay-grade.

    Also, the idea that one man-god in one area of the world at one specific point in time has to be believed in in order to be "saved" is quite problematic for me to accept. Instead, my view tends to be more "panoramic", feeling that the "inspiration" of compassion and justice are teachings found in many religions and humanistic teachings over maybe millions of years, and this tells me that there's something else at stake here that goes well beyond one god-man.

    Saw it and liked it.

    I'll cover this in a follow-up post shortly, so stay tuned! :D
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    As I mentioned before, how can God be sacrificed to God, especially since there's no precedent for this in the Tanakh? Secondly, how can a man be sacrificed to please God since human sacrifices were and are forbidden? Thirdly, the sacrifice procedures are spelled out in some detain in Torah, but they certainly weren't followed in Jesus' crucifixion. IOW, nothing about this makes sense at the literalistic level, but symbolically, it may.

    Paul was writing his first letters almost two decades after Jesus was executed, and "the Way" was having difficulty being accepted to the point whereas they were being kicked out of synagogues and quite possibly the Temple itself.

    With this being the possible scenario, regular animal/grain sacrifices may not have been allowed for this group, especially since many of them were likely "God-Fearers" (gentiles), thus not Jews.

    Along comes Paul with his actually quite brilliant mind, and he draws a parallel: Jesus was "the final sacrifice" that "forgives sins", much like the scape-goat takes on the sins of the community in Torah. IOW, he's basically saying not to lose any sleep over the fact that they're not able to perform sacrifices at the Temple because Jesus already did it for them on his own with the Father's blessing.

    Now, when we add the above to Jesus' statement that he came to serve, not to be served, then we need to look at what he served up. When I read the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, the overwhelming emphasis is on compassion and justice-- not on p.c. beliefs nor endless prayers. Yes, faith is #1, no doubt, but then Jesus goes well beyond that to the point whereas "when you do it to the least of these my children, you do it unto me" (Matthew 25-- paraphrased from memory-- as shotty as that is).

    IMO, Jesus was a great teacher, which is why I can attend my wife's church without reservation or feeling hypocritical, especially since her church is not judgmental towards other churches or religions (yes, it used to be). It teaches what it believes is correct, while at the same time allowing significant freedom of belief. Hey, if they can accept me and allow me to get involved, they can accept pretty much anybody!

    I'll be interested in your comments, but be gentile as I do bruise easily. :)
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    You are a wise man.

    LOL - ABSOLUTELY - I have enjoyed quite a few Catholic services. There is only ONE Holy apostolic universal church... we are just a different part of the whole body.

    Yes, there is a communion. There is a cloud of witnesses.

    Can the living pray for the dead? What on earth for. :D
    Can those who have departed pray for the living? I certainly don't see why not!

    God created the Heavens and the earth... I find that quite inerrant ;)

    I took the position that it either is or isn't. (Can't be both). So I establish my postulate that it was true and then said "Now, I will test the sucker and i will find out whether it is or isn't".

    I have found that YHWH indeed is our Healer, our Peace giver, our Provider, our Sanctifier and our Shepherd--the All Sufficient One.

    OK, but I don't find them contrary. I think God is trying to reach everyone so there is truth in all religions but, for me, I have decided that salvation is delineated in Jewish scriptures with greater exactness.

    looking forward to it, my friend (if I can take that liberty)
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Actually I didn't word that correctly. What I meant to say is do you believe that the living can pray through the dead in heaven to God? IOW, if I can ask you to pray for me (I need it!), can you ask someone who's in heaven to pray for you? Yes, understood that you could do that directly, but what I'm asking is can the dead help you in your prayers, much like you say Jesus can?

    Frankly, sorta hard to believe that this is case. When I look at Christianity, "ONE" is not the word that comes to mind.

    But it can. For example, the Tanakh uses narratives, language, and symbolism that are native to eretz Israel, so there's no doubt there's a cultural infusion into the texts. Does this mean or imply that the books can't be divinely inspired? Of course not.

    Therefore, why does one have to go to the extreme of denying cultural infusion or somehow feel that this negates any possibility of divine inspiration?

    So, you're not taking the "my way or the highway" position? Oh, you're in so much t-r-o-u-b-l-e. :eek:
     
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