1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Divinity of Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    According to your teachers, Jesus isn't the mediator of the rank and file witness, He's only the mediator of the elite, the 144,000 anointed. So how do the rank and file get to God? They can't, because they don't have a mediator.

    *** ws chap. 1 pp. 10-11 par. 16 The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide ***
    Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. This spiritual nation is like a little flock of Jehovah’s sheeplike ones.—Romans 9:6; Revelation 7:4.

    The 'slave' is the rank and file witness' mediator, not Jesus, and Jesus said no one gets to the Father but by "Him", so where does that leave you?
     
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Again, Jesus is not the rank and files mediator, and the rank and file are not part of the New Covenant, so where does that leave them? They have mere men as their mediator.

    *** w12 3/1 p. 17 How Should We Remember Jesus’ Death? ***
    Through the new covenant, Jehovah makes blessings available to many by means of a few. Those in the covenant are few, a mere 144,000. Through them, millions from all nations will be blessed with everlasting life in an earthly paradise. Some who are in the new covenant serve Jehovah on earth today. They alone properly partake of the bread and the wine because the cup “means the new covenant.”—Read Luke 12:32; Revelation 14:1, 3.
     
  3. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Correct! Not men, Jesus is the mediator. If Jesus isn't your mediator, you cannot get to God!
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,001
    Ratings:
    +1,133
    Religion:
    Christian
    I don't believe the Bible ever says that Michael is not human (our definition) nor does it say he ever dies. So how could he have a rebirth if he never dies?
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,001
    Ratings:
    +1,133
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Bible doesn't tell us if Michael was born or created. Jesus is both and the only one the Bible lists being both.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,001
    Ratings:
    +1,133
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is not so. I got to God without Jesus. However I did not get to the New Covenant without Jesus.
     
  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Where does the Bible list Jesus as being both?

    John 14:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    I'm afraid you didn't, unless you're claiming Jesus was lying.

    Are you a rank and file witness? I don't know if you're a witness or not, some are afraid to put that they are. If so, you're not part of the New Covenant.
     
  8. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,241
    Ratings:
    +87
    Religion:
    OT Lord
    No, God cannot die, He is eternal. God's human body (Jesus) died but His spiritual form returned to heaven. The four gospels are in error, Jesus was God. I have researched it. What you find is the four gospel stories about Jesus are mostly fiction, you don't find those stories in prior gospels. I have repeated this several times, but no one pays attention. Those are ideas for you to think about.
     
    #348 Repox, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  9. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    JW
    (quote)

    Hi Dj
    again, let's look into what the Scriptures say on the matter. What do you read at Ezekiel 18:4?

    When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. You, the person are a 'soul'. The soul is not separate from the breath of life, or spirit that keeps the body alive. Solomon wrote that "the dead know nothing at all". in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, &10. He went on to say that there is 'no work, nor planning, nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave'. Similarly, Psalm 146:4 states that when a man dies, "his thoughts do perish". We are mortal, and do not survive the death of the body. The life we enjoy is likened to the flame of a candle--when the flame is put out, it does not GO anywhere--it is simply gone. It no longer exists.
    Genesis 2:16-17 tells us that God warned Adam against sinning, and told Adam what would happen if he did sin. nothing was mentioned about Adam remaining alive in another form, or going somewhere else to remain alive, was it?
    No. God distinctly told Adam, 'you will surely die', did he not?
    The lie that people teach actually calls God a liar--false doctrine says that Adam didn't really 'die', but lived on somewhere... not what God said at all, is it?
    Please consider these Biblical points, concerning what happens to people when they die.
    may you have peace
     
  10. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    This is all fine and dandy, but, let's look at what the Apostles said about Jesus,

    1 Peter 3:18-19 (ESV Strong's) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.

    Yes, Jesus' body died, but His spirit was made alive and He went to proclaim to the spirits in prison. Why do witnesses use the Old Testament to try and devalue the New Testament? How do you think Jesus went to proclaim to the "prisoners" if He or no one else existed? If they all were dead and gone, where and how did Jesus proclaim to them? I'm under the New Covenant, so I go by the New Testament. I'm guessing you're a rank and file witness who is not under the New Covenant, that's why you resort to the Old Testament.
     
  11. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    JW
    (quote)

    Hi repox
    God was not ever a man. God Almighty would never be in a form 'created lower than the angels', as man was. He sent forth his Only Begotten Son, Jesus into the world of mankind, as John 3:16 clearly states.
    (who) God loved the world of mankind so much, that He (Jehovah the Almighty, who ALONE is the Most High over all the earth, (Ps. 83:18) is the one doing the SENDING. right?

    (Jesus) The one God SENT FORTH into the world, remained faithful to God to the death, in order to provide the RANSOM price to God, for the sin and death sentence on all of Adam's offspring, who were born in sin, so that they may live again in the promised resurrection to life again, DUE TO the paid Ransom price by Jesus. read Romans 5:12. The Law Covenant required the repayment for sin to be 'like for like', i.e., the same 'amount' , or the equal to what was lost much be repaid. No sinful human could buy back the life of a perfect human, which Adam was, until he sinned. therefore no other human could pay the required Ransom. Which is why God opted to send HIS Son to earth, to be born a human not tainted by the sin of Adam, but also having God as his Father, as Adam did, so the EQUAL Amount owed could thereby be paid via the perfect human life of Jesus, who had no sin, and remained faithful to the death, thereby providing the sacrificial amount required by God and the Law of Moses.

    Now do you understand what the ransom price was, and what was required by God under the Mosaic Law, to pay the debt 'once for all time' on behalf of all of mankind?
    see Mark 10:45, 1John 2:2, Hebrews 5:9 , 1 John 4:9-10, Romans 5:7-8.

    the 'gospels' are matthew, mark, luke and John. they are all true. They are Inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving, and setting things straight. Do not be deceived into thinking that they are anything other than letters to us from God Almighty, the One who is a Spirit, as per John 4:24, the One who sent Jesus forth, John 7:28, the One who sent Jesus forth as 'His representative' into the world, according to Jesus' own words at John 16:27.

    I hope this helps in your search for Bible understanding.

    take care
     
  12. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    JW
    (quote)
    The entire Bible is beneficial, none of it is obsolete, but all 66 books are important if we are to learn from God who provided it for all who seek Him in truth. The New Covenant was instituted by Jesus on the night of His execution, and all who obey Him and follow Jesus as God's anointed King and Head of the Christian Congregation, honor the teachings of Jesus as the one who fulfilled the Mosaic Law and instituted the new covenant for a kingdom as Mediator and High Priest.
    We have the Hebrew Scriptures, and the Christian Greek Scriptures, all of which are beneficial for all things, and are Inspired of God. Those who are chosen to rule with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom partake of the emblems, and the rest attend and observe the service annually 'in memory' of the sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf, as the other flock of God's people who will 'reside upon the earth' under the guidance of the King and his associate Kings as per God's provision for restoring the planet earth to a paradise of peace that will remain forever. Psalm 37:9-11, & 29. Revelation 21:3-4, Matthew 5:5
    This is what Jesus taught us to pray for at Matthew 6:9-10.
    peace
     
  13. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    I guess you don't see the confusion in those posts, do you?

    Jesus WAS NOT known as Jesus until He was born.

    It was to Jesus whom Jehovah spoke when He said, "let us make man".

    Jesus, the One God sent forth.


    If Jesus WAS NOT known as Jesus before His birth, how could God have spoke to Jesus or send Him forth? It was Michael who God spoke to, it was Michael whom God sent forth.
     
  14. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,241
    Ratings:
    +87
    Religion:
    OT Lord
    Thanks, but I have a special understanding of the Bible which doesn't conform to most believers ideas, but it is works for me. I believe Jesus was God and not the son of God. Mostly, the OT has the correct perspective. The NT is in error because it proposes Jesus was the son of God, not God. God came into the world to give testimony to his chosen people. Things went crazy, so, after Jesus was murdered, they invented son of God sacrificial lamb stories. It can't get any better, just believe in Jesus and you will be saved. I don't think it is true. Back then, followers couldn't accept the truth about Jesus being God.
     
  15. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    JW
     
  16. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    He was also to be called, "everlasting Father". How can the Son be the "everlasting Father"?

    Isaiah 9:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
     
  17. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Only to your org He was, not in the Scriptures He wasn't.
     
  18. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    JW
     
  19. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    JW
    (quote)

    Isaiah 9:6 is not a stand alone verse, please consider some additional information needed to understand its meaning:
    Since God took Jesus’ life from heaven and put it inside the woman Mary, Jesus did not get any sin from Adam. That is why Jesus was a perfect man. (Luke 1:30-35)
    That is also why an angel said to the shepherds when Jesus was born: “There was born to you today a Savior.” (Luke 2:11)
    But to be our Savior, what did the baby Jesus first need to do?— He needed to grow up and become a full-grown man, just like Adam. Then Jesus could become ‘the second Adam.’

    Jesus, our Savior, will also become our “Eternal Father.” He is called that in the Bible. (Isaiah 9:6, 7) Yes, the perfect Jesus can become our father instead of Adam, who became imperfect when he sinned. That way we can choose to have ‘the second Adam’ as our father. Of course, Jesus himself is a Son of Jehovah God.
    Effectually, Jesus 'repurchased' those who put faith in him and the Ransom Sacrifice for sin, and became our 'Father' by the repurchasing and saving us from the eternal death sentence that Adam brought upon us.

    Hope this helps.
    (quote)
     
  20. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    John 2:19-22 (ESV Strong's) 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

    Jesus told them "HE" would raise His "BODY". When He resurrected His "BODY" the disciples remembered that He had said "HE" would raise His "BODY". He wasn't resurrected to some "spirit creature".
     
Loading...