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The Book of Mormon

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Corban, Aug 16, 2004.

  1. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    the story of Ham who was cursed to be dark skinned and the 'sevent of servents'.

    sounds kinda' racist to me...

    not to mention all the snipeing of the Arabic nations around Isrial in the bible.

    However I'm not saying that all Cristians/LDS are racist, just that thier is some raceism inherant in the books they hold so dear. Individuals choose what to believe for themselves.

    wa:do
     
  2. Mercellus

    Mercellus Member

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    I testify to you in the name of Jesus Christ that The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ is true and is the word of God. The Bible, too, testifies of the divinity of God and His great love for us and is His word.

    Yes, there are many of our brothers and sisters here in the world today that have a different color of skin than you or I may have. They, you and myself are all sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly Father. God is no respector of persons, but He does reward righteousness. There are a lot of peope out there, of every color of skin, that are living their lives contrary to the commandments of God. There are a lot of people out there, of every color of skin, that are living their lives in accordance to the commandments of God.

    You can find in both The Bible and The Book of Mormon instances where the Lord has cursed someone for disobedience and placed a mark upon them. That only came after that person(s) chose to go against God and His Gospel. If they would have chosen to keep His commandments, neither the curse nor a mark would have been placed upon them. God may not always place a mark upon us because of our sins, but the curse and terrible punishment of losing the companionship of His Spirit, because of OUR actions, which are contrary to His commandments, causes great pain and loneliness. Although God is just and does punish us for our sins, He is also mercifull and loving. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

    "But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7)

    "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth ALL to com unto him and partake of his goodness; and denieth none that come unto him, BLACK and WHITE, BOND and FREE, MALE and FEMALE; and he remembereth the HEATHEN; and ALL are alike unto God, both JEW and GENTILE." (2 Nephi 26:33)
     
  3. Corban

    Corban Member

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    1)there is alot of evidence of civilizations in ancient americas. they built temples similiar to those found in the eastern world.

    2) does there need to be, not all egyptian writing is the same, different writings could of themselves be called reformed. The Nephites lived on thier own for a thousand years, of course their writings would have changed in that time, English has been around for less time than the Nephites were.

    3)what part of the BofM contradicts Mormon beliefs?

    4)the bible wasn't written 1200 years later, the bofm people left Jerusalem around 600 B.C. about the time of Jeremiah, they took whith them records of the prophets, including the books of moses and writings down to that time and it was from those they quoted.

    5)As well it should. Who can claim that the King James Version is a perfect translation from the original writers. The writings from which the book of mormon people quoted were from a more originall source ((see previous question) than that from which the KJ version was transated. if they were the same then you could make an argument

    6)Your right here, not all our doctrines come from the book of mormon. We accept the BofM and the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants to be the word of God. And we accept what is taught by the prophet who lives today as the word of God, when he dies we will accept what is taught by the next prophet to be the word of God. We believe all that God has revealed all that He does reveal and that He will yet reveal many important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
     
  4. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    And where is this evidence? Certainly not in museums or in textbooks, to the best of my knowledge. Could you provide informational websites for us to check out? Preferably ones supported by archeologists and science as opposed to religion?

    Of course there needs to be evidence! We can't just assume things here! The idea you presented about the Nephites living on their own for such a long period of time could be considered a logical explaination for the evolution of a style of writing, but only after we have evidence that the Nephites ever existed, and therefore that this writing style even exists.

    So does the BoM consider the New Testament in the bible to be false?

    Why don't we have these 'more original sources' today? What proof do you have that they exist/existed?

    What if the two prophets contradict each other?
     
  5. dolly

    dolly Member

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    Thank you Ceridwen for answering that. : )



    Of civilizations, yes. Of the civilizations spoken of in the BoM, no. If you have evidence, then please show them to me.

    There does need to be. If this was a real language and they had the capability to write, there would be more than one text written in it.

    Alma 11:28-31: "Now Zeezrom said: ‘Is there more than one God?’ and [Amulek] answered, ‘No.’ And Zeezrom said unto him again, ‘How knowest thou these things?’ And he said: ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.’"

    I thought you were polytheistic?

    etc

    The King Jame's version was, correct me if I'm wrong.

    You misunderstood. The BoM has some of the same translation errors as the KJ bible. There is plagiarism involved. Sometimes whole chapters were written in a verbatim manner (with only slight changes in phrases (like using synonyms, etc), and a few things removed) from the Bible. 2 Nephi 16 = Isaiah 6. 2 Nephi 13 = Isaiah 3. etc

    "...the Book of Mormon contains "the truth and the Word of God" (D&amp:C, 19:26); "the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ" (that is, Mormon teachings, D&C, 20:9); and the "fullness of the everlasting gospel" (D&C, 135:3). Doctrine and Covenants also has Jesus claiming that the Book of Mormon has "the principles of my gospel" (D&C, 42:12) and "all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock" (D&C, 18:4, cf. 17:1-6; emphasis added [...]).

    According to the Doctrine and Covenants then, the Book of Mormon must contain at the very least some of the central doctrines of the Mormon faith. But the Book of Mormon contains few major Mormon doctrines. It does not teach any of the following central Mormon principles, which form the foundation of the Mormon church and its "gospel": polytheism; God as the product of an eternal progression; eternal marriage; polygamy; human deification; the Trinity as three separate Gods; baptism for the dead; maintaining genealogical records; universalism; God has a physical body and was once a man; God organized, not created, the world; mother gods (heavenly mothers); temple marriage as a requirement for exaltation; the concept of eternal intelligences; three degrees of heavenly glory (telestial, terrestial, celestial); salvation after death in the spirit world; a New Testament era of Mormon organizational offices and functions such as the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods; stake presidents and first presidency."

    They said it better than I could.

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b60ab.html#subject1
     
  6. reeder

    reeder New Member

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    Nice work Dolly & friends,

    You didn't even bring up the horses mentioned in the BOM. Horses were not on the American continent during the time period covered by the BOM.

    What about those millions of swords, we can't find any of the swords the lamanites fought with.

    What about the DNA, the native americans are genetically shown to be from across the bearing staight, No sign of middle eastern DNA.
     
  7. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    There are many archeological evidences of the veracity of the Book of Mormon, but most people rely on a very old negation by the Smithsonian of any validity of Book of Mormon claims. This statements predates many of the finds that shape our current understanding of archeology. Evidence is ample to not only to make credible our claim, but to make it very convincing.

    1- Joseph Smith was the very first man to suggest that there was any type of organization or intelligence in the mesoamerican civilizations. The Book of Mormon was laughed at for years until an archeologist discovered that writings and even books did, in fact, exist during that time (along with an incredibly intricate civilization). Up until then they were all thought of as savages and nothing more. This discovery rocked the anthropological world, but you wouldn't know that because you live at a time when that is common knowledge. Joseph Smith asserted that fact before anyone even thought of it.

    2- The Book of Mormon mentions a city in south-central arabia called Nahom. Joseph Smith seemed to have pulled it out of his nether-regions until a city was unearthed in south-central arabia bearing the name Naham (the differences in transliteration are meaningless). How could Joseph Smith have given an arbitrary name and location to a city only to have that city unearthed almost two hundred years later? Heck of a coincidence.

    3- Spanish conquistadors have written about ancient mesoamerican stories about a white, bearded god visiting them and promising to return, as well as stories about a family crossing the seas after the tower of babel incident to inhabit their lands; two stories that exist nowhere in the world except in the Book of Mormon.

    4- We're all familiar with the controversial fact that the Book of Mormon(hereafter referred to as the b.o.m.) talks of horses and even elephants (how can that be? They didn't come to the Americas until after the Spanish arrived!), but both species have been found to have pre-dated contemporary discovery of this continent. All the things about plants, animals and inventions that didn't appear to exist before the Spanish have also been shown to be false.

    5- The b.o.m. contains Hebraisms and Semitic literary styles that Joseph Smith could not possibly have even been cognizant of. Synonymous parallelism, antithetic parallelism, chiasmus, simile curses, the prophetic perfect, compound prepositions, plural amplification, four and eight part construction, the construct state, the cognate accusative and the repitition of the possessive pronoun are some of the styles that were unique to ancient and near eastern literature. They were all completely unhknown to Joseph Smith or any of his contemporaries, but the b.o.m. is replete with textbook examples of them.

    6- Of the eleven men who swore to have physically seen and handled the gold plates, only a couple remained faithful to the church, but not a one denied his testimony, despite ridicule, humiliation and offers of riches. Every single one, in fact, restated his testimony and affirmed the actuality of the gold plates shortly before death, even though some of them tried to have Joseph Smith arrested and killed.

    7- The b.o.m. claims the southern pacificislands were inhabited by south american peoples. This was laughed at until a man in the forties, Thor Hyerdahl (not mormon) came up with the same theory and set out to prove it by building a ship of ancient materials and sailing it across the pacific. The whole world told him he was gonna die until he arrived at the other side of the pacific. Read the book Kon Tiki to find out about his trip. He proved possible a theory that Joseph Smith came up with (completely unbeknownst to him) over a hundred years earlier.

    I could go on for days, but I won't. These are only the easiest ones to type out. Others would take hours to get down. A good book you can read is Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon, by Parry, Peterson and Welch. It was published by the foundation for ancient research and mormon studies, a.k.a F.A.R.M.S. If this isn't enough simply submit a problem (one at a time) that you have with the b.o.m. and I'll show you the most recent research that has been done.
     
  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Recent discoveries have proven horses did, in fact, exist before the Spanish ever arrived. I'll provide the documentation when I have access to it.

    So?

    All that old study shows is the existence of a certain DNA type that was more common in far eastern peoples than in near eastern. It does not set out to prove or disprove anything, nor does it provide any evidence for any kind of conclusion on the subject. At best it says, "Hey, they may have come from accross the bearing straight."
     
  9. sethsherwood

    sethsherwood New Member

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    The idea of Indians coming over the bering land bridge is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
     
  10. DianJo

    DianJo New Member

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    The Book of Mormon cannot be taken seriously, please!
    They cannot even be considered Christian. They believe that God is a CREATED being and that he had a celestial wife and the product of that union was Jesus and that Satan is Jesus' brother! They believe that Jesus is the son of god but not THE Son of God! They believe Jesus is a created being!
    They also believe something about - If you're a Mormon "in good standing" (provided you've tithed correctly) that when you die, you will become a god, like God, and have your own planet to rule over! How whacked is that! They also believe in a plurality of gods - like paganism?!

    There is no archeological evidence for anything in the Book of Mormon or anything else Joseph Smith professes to be "truth"! He claims that Jesus appeared to him and charged him with "bringing back His chruch". The Book of Mormon that was given to him by an "angel" and was supposedly a book of gold. Oh! but where is this "book"? The angel took it with him when he left! Right, Please!

    First of all, ALL revelation ended with the death of last apostle - period! Second, Jesus' church didn't go anywhere, it's still on this earth - just as He promised it would be - "the gates of hell shall not prevail agianst it".
     
  11. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Actually it`s just recently been supported by matrochondial tracing.

    Where did you get this info?

    I`m still waiting for that pre-Spaniards horse documentation.

    Dan,

    You`ve provided alot of statements without a single reference to show they have any validity.

    Are we to simply take your word ?
     
  12. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Wow, where to began, the ignorance is so thick it's hard to see any viable point to discuss. Let's look at your point on revelation, because that's what this church is based on. You have a lot of misunderstandings about Mormon doctrine, but your mindless blatherings are so off as to not warrant discussion.

    But all the questions of Mormonism can be answered by looking at revelation. If Joseph was a prophet what he taught was true and should be believed, if not then everything he taught was false. So, revelation, this ended with the death of the last apostle. Then how do you know Jesus is the Christ? Rev. 19:10 says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, but according to you that spirit of prophecy is dead so according to you no one can have a testimony of Jesus and we are all going to hell. that's a sad belief.

    and i know it's hard to believe an angel appeared to Joseph Smith, it's hard to believe God talks to man, that's why people always reject the prophets of thier own, day, it's so easy to look to the past and accept, but if you can't accept prophets of today you wouldn't have accepted them in the past, you would have been right there with the others throwing rocks at Stephen as he looked into heaven, screaming you can't talk to God!

    And what of Ephesians 4:11, he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists, and some pasors and teachers, 13, TILL WE ALL COME IN THE UNITY OF FAITH, so according to you everyone was in a unity of faith when the apostles died and revelation ceased. they must have for your argument to stand, or else God is a liar and took them away before we had a unity of faith.

    If angels and revelation were supposed to cease then why did John looking to the last days, see another angel flying in the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to the world, why would he need to bring it if it was already here. and i love how you say God's church never left, if it did i wonder where it has been hiding for the last 2,000 years because i don't see it and i certainly don't see as look through history.
     
  13. Corban

    Corban Member

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    I've yet to hear any logical discussions on the Book of Mormon, just ignorant generalities, has anyone actually read it or studied it that would like to comment?
     
  14. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hiya Corban!

    Yes, I have read the BOM.... several times, in fact.

    Question:

    In the BOM we read that Jesus "shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is in the land of our forefathers" (Alma 7:10).

    But Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem (Matt. 2:1). ???? What gives?

    And what about this:
    "I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

    "Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian" (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).

    "Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast" (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).

    "The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon" (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).

    "All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels" (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).

    [Under the heading, "Church of the Devil," Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] "The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).

    "Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).

    Do these quotes reflect your views? Why or why not?

    Thanks!
    Scott
     
  15. Corban

    Corban Member

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  16. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply Corban.

    It's sad to see a modern church like your that is so openly hostile towards other faiths.
    I thought views like this ended a few hundred years ago.

    Oh well, who am I to judge?

    God bless you.
    Scott
     
  17. Corban

    Corban Member

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    On the contrary, our church is the only one that can encompass all truths with out undermining our integrity, ask a catholic if a babtist is saved, ask a baptist if a budhist is going to heaven. We believe in the oportuinity for all of God's children to come unto him, we accept all truth whether it is found in a catholic church or a budhist temple, but at the same time we unhesantantly say this is the only church that is led by Christ, we do not say to others they are going to hell, we say take the good that you have and let us add to it.
     
  18. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Corban,

    You don't seem to be following along....... did you read the quotes from your church I provided?

    Catholics don't profess to know if someone is "saved" or not. We (all true Christians, Catholic or not) are redeemed by the blood of Christ, we trust in him alone for our salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, we are all "working out (our) salvation in fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in our lives.

    The Catholic Church does not refer to the Protestants as as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ or profess that memebers of a particular faith are as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast" .... as your faith believes.

    Well, the quotes I provided show that you are incorrect or deceptive in your statements.

    ....either way, this is not something that I care to have "added" to my faith.

    Thanks for letting me know the truth of the LDS "church".

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  19. Corban

    Corban Member

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    that's fascinating you can claim to speak for all of Christianity, the problem is they don't share your views, i've asked baptist if catholics are saved, they said no, because they worship a false Christ,

    and as for Catholics, wow you missed the mark let's look at what the church has said
    " There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which NO ONE at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

    " We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull, Unam Sanctum, 1302.)

    " The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

    Ask a catholic what happens if your not baptised by a catholic priest. They informed me that if i wasn't i would go to hell, and not only that children born to catholic parents who don't recieve baptism before they die go to hell.

    the problem with your statement is, if your statements are indeed true, then the whole of Christianity must be false. God does not change, if there is more than one belief about him, either one or both must be falsed, you can not group all of Christianity, because the sects of Christianity are so varying in their beliefs as to seclude the option of grouping them together in doctrine or in practice. If i worshiped my dog and called him Christ i would be just as much a christian as you claim to be and the group you claim to represent.
     
  20. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Second, Jesus' church didn't go anywhere, it's still on this earth - just as He promised it would be - "the gates of hell shall not prevail agianst it".

    Yeah....um....there is just one problem with this statement, Jesus (peace be upon him) never set up his own church. The church was set up after he died.
     
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