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Featured The Bible says Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Feb 25, 2021.

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  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    Another way to put it is, there is no longer a written law but the law of moses incarnated in human form. The law (commandments) given to moses wasn't god and the human incarnation of the law (life, death, redemption) isn't god either. One is written and the other an incarnation. From what I understand it is that the bible made his laws incarnated into flesh to have a personal relationship with people as that's the only way christians can understand god's laws (not jesus') is through and by his son.

    You'd have a point if god was his own law since the creator is the one who actually, well, created it. Not everyone shares that view hence why they aren't trinitarian.
     
  2. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    In this case, not only Adam is a son of God but also the demons and the devil.
    And what did you want to achieve with this question?
     
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  3. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The realization that son can mean a lot of things. The word lord can have different meanings. Folks pick the meaning that is convenient to support the truth they want to believe.
     
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  4. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Welcome Teritos! :D

    Does the old testament ever say that the coming messiah would also be god?
     
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  5. WhoIsBeast 750

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    and now stand up for your sayings


    John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    John 17:25 Righteous Father, the world hath not known thee, but I have known thee, and they have known that thou hast sent me.
     
  6. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Isaiah 40:3
     
  7. The Hammer

    The Hammer White Wolf - kvite ulfh
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    You are NOT the father. *joeseh Takes off running*
     
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  8. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    If you search the forum for a thread call "Is Jesus God?" you will find page upon page of back and forth on this issue.
     
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  9. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Hmm... Where is the Messiah mentioned? That section of the bible doesn't seem to be in reference to the Messiah from what I can tell.

    Isaiah 40:1-5

    It seems to be about god's glory and what he's done for Israel.
     
  10. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    The bible is wrong
     
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  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    God the Son. Ancestral to God the Universal Father. Divine yes, a chip off the ole block.

    All divine beings are unified, to us they are all One.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    This is how I would understand it

    1. Creator made the world
    2. Adam and eve messed up
    3. God punished them
    4. People sinned repeatedly
    5. God killed all who sinned
    6. God gives His law to moses

    7. Law and God cannot be
    separated (they are one)
    8. Again no one listened

    9. God got a bright idea
    "Let me make this law flesh so it can 'walk among the people' and through and by it, if they follow the law made flesh/jesus, they follow me

    10. Poof! Jesus was born "to get to the father is to get Through me"

    11. Apostles kept going to Jesus but Jesus kept saying: no silly, I'm not important only my father is

    So years down the line people associated christ As God because through him is his you follow the new law, and when you follow Jesus/law made flesh, you follow the creator.

    Trinitarians see Christ as God because God can't be separate from his law

    No trinitarians don't see Christ as God because christ has always pointed away from himself to God/law giver.

    I honestly don't believe it should be a salvational issue. But, well...
     
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  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    So, unsupported, then.
    Why do you keep quoting this anthology of folk-tales? Could you give us some indication of its authoritativeness before quoting it?
     
  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Well, why not? If God can exist uncreated why not anything else?
    Ignore what? What facts are you proposing, here?
    You do realize all this is is ancient folklore, don't you, not established history? Do you understand that there are dozens of other religions based on different folklore, and that however internally consistent a fable is, if it's not based on observable facts, it remains a fable?
     
  15. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Which Bible version did you use?

    I ask because I have not a version that has the phrase "through myself" in that verse:

    Isaiah 44:24
    (AFV)
    Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, and He Who formed you from the womb, "I am the LORD Who makes all things; Who stretches out the heavens alone; Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

    (ASV)
    Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);

    (BBE)
    The Lord, who has taken up your cause, and who gave you life in your mother's body, says, I am the Lord who makes all things; stretching out the heavens by myself, and giving the earth its limits; who was with me?

    (Bishops)
    Thus saith the Lorde thy redeemer, euen he that fassioned thee from thy mothers wombe: I the Lorde do all thinges my selfe alone, I only spreade out the heauens, and I only haue laide abrode the earth by my owne selfe.

    (Darby)
    Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, the maker of all things; who alone stretched out the heavens, who did spread forth the earth by myself;

    (DRB)
    Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, and thy maker, from the womb: I am the Lord, that make all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that established the earth, and there is none with me.

    (ERV)
    The one who rescued you is the LORD, the one who formed you in your mother's womb. He says, "I, the LORD, made everything. I put the skies there myself. I spread out the earth before me."

    (Geneva)
    Thus sayeth the Lord thy redeemer and he that formed thee from the wombe, I am the Lord, that made all things, that spred out the heauens alone, and stretched out the earth by my selfe.

    (GNB)
    "I am the LORD, your savior; I am the one who created you. I am the LORD, the Creator of all things. I alone stretched out the heavens; when I made the earth, no one helped me.

    (ISV)
    "This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: "I am the LORD who has made everything, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth—Who was with me at that time?—,

    (KJV)
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    (KJV-1611)
    Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the wombe; I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heauens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by my selfe:

    (KJVA)
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    (KJV-BRG)
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    (LEB)
    Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, and he who formed you in the womb: "I am Yahweh, who made everything, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth—who was with me?—

    (LITV)
    So says Jehovah, your Redeemer and your Former from the womb; I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens, I alone spreading out the heavens. Who was with Me,

    (LSV)
    Thus said YHWH, your Redeemer, || And your Framer from the womb: “I [am] YHWH, doing all things, || Stretching out the heavens by Myself, || Spreading out the earth—who [is] with Me?

    (MKJV)
    So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Jehovah who makes all things; who stretches out the heavens alone; who spreads out the earth; who was with Me?

    (RV)
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am the LORD, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth; who is with me?

    (TLV)
    Thus says Adonai, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am Adonai, Maker of all things, stretching out the heavens alone, spreading the earth abroad by Myself,

    (TS2009)
    Thus said יהוה, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, “I am יהוה, doing all, stretching out the heavens all alone, spreading out the earth, with none beside Me,

    (WEB)
    Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb says: “I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who alone stretches out the heavens; who spreads out the earth by myself;

    (WEBA)
    Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb says: “I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who alone stretches out the heavens; who spreads out the earth by myself;

    (Webster)
    Thus saith the LORD thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself:

    (YLT)
    Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth—who is with Me?​
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    We don't have to believe in something to understand it and still find sense in arguments about it, no?
     
  17. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    O God earth existed. Stone angel.
    The seal.

    God held within its body the origin of sin. Self consuming Satan angel. God overcame Satan.

    The teaching.

    O gods as mass in universe had fallen out of eternal as space formed by thinning of the eternal.

    Eternal lost God from is body God equals space.

    Cold empty space is God.

    Matter if fact. Empty cold space is why origin of sin consuming stopped.

    God is everything.
    A gas.
    A planet in multi forms.
    A star.
    A sun. For God is still rebelling.

    But not our God.

    The thesis about the existence of God.

    O God stone as stone then had sex with space womb. Put hot spirit into womb.

    Mother holy magically conceived the cooling of that spirit. It became immaculate.

    Immaculate was owned by God and mother of God space vacuum.

    The rebelling God the sun attacked earth and sacrificed the immaculate. Set it on fire again.

    Earths sin as son of god in heavens was sacrificed. God owned the light.

    For in that circumstance God mass also cold gases got burnt converted also. Same incident not discussed

    Sun made sink holes. Without water mass on ground.

    Flooded earth thesis mountain tips above water line. A pyramid thesis.

    How much mass below water equalled UFO mass above? Unknown.

    Flat top mountain.

    Then UFO mass evaporated water lifted it off earth and placed it into sky already burning.

    Water and vacuum owned with immaculate natural light

    Basic.

    Not Jesus no man present in that thesis.

    Thesis man about man is in presence of man himself

    Telling medical appraisals.

    Takes a cell of a whole body. Body no longer owns the cell they study.

    Study says I have all answers. Answer cell abstracted from a whole human.

    Did it physically.

    Then applied thesis to machine reaction involving atmosphere experiments

    Quote how I can copy cause the life sacrifice of my brother man.

    Genesis thesis brother discussing his brother by medical healer thesis.

    To discuss science want is first.
    Want to copy.

    To own design. Just machine.
    To react machine. To take more higher mass than machine strings to equal reaction.

    Destroyer of man life by sacrifice.

    Reason minerals own s healthy bio life. We are mainly water with mineral chemicals.

    To get machine he melts minerals

    That moment in thinking is the sacrifice of life. Machine to take bodily place of man brother.

    Consciousness human owned thinks

    Says what it believed right or wrong.

    If he thinks self is everything in science then he only wants O earth as God plus heavens to exist without nature life.

    As that theoried belief life began as a sacrifice by presence my machine.

    Why we argue stating the Bible is a contradiction.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    These are all old arguments here, but if I may address these points....

    For starters, why would God describe himself as a Father who has a son? If humans only understand that relationship in their own terms, why would God throw a spanner in the works by using these terms just to confuse the relationship? Jesus identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself. He described himself as the one He "sent forth". (John 17:3)

    Jesus is called "God's only begotten son", not because he is somehow part of God that split away, but because he caused the "birth" of his own son. Anyone who is "begotten" needs a 'begetter' who naturally existed before the one who was "begotten". God's nature is not complicated at all until you try to merge Father and Son into one entity...then it becomes bizarre.

    No, God created the pre-human Jesus, (Revelation 3:14) who was his "Logos" (spokesman) from "the beginning". (John 1:1-2) It is the Logos who became flesh, not the Father. Jesus is a servant of his God and Father. (Acts 3:13; 26)

    Even after his return to heaven, Jesus still referred to his Father as "my God". (Revelation 3:12) How can God be his own God? How does God pray to himself?

    Don't put words in his mouth either. When God's word says that the son was God's agency "through" which all creation was made, it doesn't mean that they are one and the same person, anymore than a construction company is the same as the architect who designed the building. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

    Any who are defined as a "son of God" are those either directly created by him, or who are given a "rebirth" by God to become a "new creation". (Born again) Not all Christians are "born again"...only those who are chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

    The scriptures are also called "the word of God"....these are written under inspiration by God. (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13)

    Jesus as the Logos (Word) was God's spokesman....IOW, he was the one who spoke for God as his representative, because sin was a barrier between God and the now sinful human race, so Jesus was appointed as Mediator. (1 Timothy 2:5-6) If Jesus was God, wouldn't we need a mediator between us and him?
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John are both on a gnostic model, in which God is imagined as a being so purely spiritual that [he] would never do something so base as to create the material world. Therefore the job of creating the material world falls to the demiurge, the 'craftsman'. and this is the role both Paul and the author of John assign to Jesus.

    Paul (like John) is vague on the details of the creation of the world, but very clear on the fact that Jesus is not God ─

    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

    Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    John is even clearer. His Jesus, like Paul's, also pre-existed with God in heaven but is only God's envoy ─

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
    and many more.

    The Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke each deny that they're God too eg ─

    Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

    Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

    The NT gives three different versions. As you can see above, the gnostic-flavored Jesuses of Paul and John pre-existed in heaven with God.

    The Jesus of Mark is born an ordinary Jew until God adopts him when John the Baptist has baptized him (Mark 1:9-11) on the model of Psalm 2:7 where God adopts David as [his] son. (Acts 13:33 says the same thing.)

    The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke each (a) did not pre-exist in heaven (b) were born by the divine insemination of a virgin. (Luke doesn't seem to run with his own idea, referring both to Jesus' baptism, a version of Mark's, as the occasion, and also Jesus' resurrection, found too in Acts 13:32-34.)

    What they all have in common is that they all say they're not God and they never claim that they are.
     
    #39 blü 2, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am my own Granpaw?
     
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