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The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

shmogie

Well-Known Member
God's Law of the Decalogue binds every one to it, be he a Jew or a Christian. When Paul claimed that he and his disciples had been released from the Law, he was simply juggling with nonsense. (Romans 7:6)
Wrong, God's law, the Torah, is a failure, something better has come. Christ said " you shall know the truth, and the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE " You aren't free,you are bound. As I asked the other Torah worshiper, Why did God allow the destruction of the temple and his system, if it so critical for everyone ? The Talmud by necessity changed God's system, I have no comment on that. However, even you must realize that you worship in a fashion different from what God gave Moses, and what was required. You may contend that the Rabbi's after the Temple and in essence, the original Jewish faith were destroyed, heard the voice of God, and came up with an alternate plan, I have no comment on that. However, you rail at the Jews who recognized the Messiah, and at his guidance and instruction, wrote the NT, the word of God. So you, believe in a modified and changed system, but do everything possible, (with no evidence, no effect) to undermine the Jews who, from the Christian perspective, had it absolutely correct. If that isn't total arrogance, I don't what is
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Or rather you are clueless about what he's talking about.

The big picture,

God's plan, as He gradually reveals to humans, is to build an eternity we call Heaven for His creatures such as the angels and humans living with Him forever. However God hates something which we call sin. God is said to be completely sin incompatible. Law is thus set up to address what a sin is, so that if any entities with freewill chooses to break the Law in a specified period of time then he's disqualified to enter the final Heaven. That's why there's a Final Judgment to legitimately and openly bring those qualified to Heaven. That's when the New Heaven and New earth starts to run.

However under the influence of Satan, the first lineage of humans sinned when put in Eden (a place inside God's realm). Since then humans are driven out of God's realm, living in the current planet earth where Satan is literally said to be the god of this world. When humans are no longer inside God's realm, with Satan's influence being much stronger, no human can thus enter the final heaven by abiding the Law. This point is proven (by God) so it came the story of Noah. God's purpose for humans (to live the eternal Heaven) was defeated. Humans as a whole will fail the final judgment of God's Law. Thus the existence of earth serves no purpose but a pool of sins which God hates. It's thus time to destroy this pool of sins once and for all (by water).

Satan thus triumphs as he has destroyed God's plan of bringing humans to Heaven. But it's not yet. God has Jesus Christ the savior. Through the blood of Jesus Christ God can now grant a series of covenants as a mean of salvation to humans. A covenant simply says, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ. Each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and saints).

Satan (and his angels) on the other hand will stress his influence, humans will thus sin further to an extent that an older covenant may fail in identifying the righteous (the harvest). Then it is time for God to upgrade His covenant to a newer one by granting more Grace, such that His Elect (the righteous) will become savable.

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV2011)
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The New Covenant brought in directly by Jesus Himself became the final covenant because it has the maximum Grace granted. Under this covenant, our salvation is measured by our faith alone. Faith in Christ becomes the only rule (unlike Mosaic Law) applied for us to be saved. You believe with Faith in a correct fashion then you will be saved (brought to the final Heaven) legitimately and openly.

Whether one can fulfill what a covenant said will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself, because all the Grace is granted under His name. His blood gives Him the right to grant the Grace to anyone He wishes though He will judge fairly and He will judge what is deep inside your heart. The angels and saints will also be the witnesses to see if you have fulfilled the covenant. As for the New Covenant, Jesus will judge if your faith qualifies you to enter the final Heaven.

If you are considered (by Jesus Christ) to fail the covenant, then you will be judged by the Law which will sentence you to death (the second death) with whatever consequences it brings.
Excellent !
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Jesus was not the goal of the Law. The goal of the Law was and still is to keep us safe from the troubles of life.

Jesus was the living representation of the Law. Anyone who lives by his example lives by the Law.

I read it again as you suggested. Romans 7:1-7 was a Pauline allegory with the aim at teaching that as the widow is released of the law that subjected her to her husband with the death of her husband, we have been released from the Law with the death of Jesus. Read Romans 7:6. And, mind you, he meant the Law of the Decalogue because, if you read verse 7 again, where is it written "thou shall not covet" if not in the decalogue. You don't have to protect Paul of his own blunders because they bark like lost dogs. Every one can see where they are.

It does not say that we have been released from the Law with the death of Jesus. Paul never said that, ever. Shmogie is the only one making that claim. In Romans 7:6-7 it is saying, again, those who have "died to what was bound" to them (died to sin) have been released from the Law to serve in the newness of Spirit. As I have explained before, those who live in the Spirit live by the Law and will not break the Law. If you don't break the Law (sin), then the Law can't condemn you. That is what it means to be "free from the Law." And he was saying that the command "thou shall not covet" gave him the knowledge that coveting is wrong, and that because he was "fleshy, sold under sin" the sin of coveting temped him to sin through the Torah. That's not say the commandment is bad, but the sin is bad. On the contrary, in the same chapter, he says that the Torah is "holy" and "spiritual." This is why it is important to live in the Spirit because only by the Spirit can the Torah be obeyed and fulfilled in one's heart (Jeremiah 31:33). If you don't understand this, then it means you'd rather be a materialist and refuse to understand and apply the spirit of the Law, and only go through the motions of the Law like the Pharisees. You are ignorant. You think you understand Paul, but you don't. Oh, and by the way, even if Peter was illiterate doesn't mean his epistle is a forgery. He could have dictated to a scribe if he didn't write it himself. Such an allegation is ridiculous and unbelievable.

[Romans 8:1-8] There is, then, now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah יהושע, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the Torah of the Spirit of the life in Messiah יהושע has set me free from the law of sin and of death. For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed is it able, and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.

But don't worry, I don't believe that text because Jesus would not insult his own colleagues with those words

Colleagues? LOL! Are you serious? The ones who charged him with blasphemy and sentenced him to death were his colleagues? Sorry, but Jesus was not a Pharisee because he wasn't a Jew.
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
Wrong, God's law, the Torah, is a failure, something better has come. Christ said " you shall know the truth, and the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE " You aren't free,you are bound. As I asked the other Torah worshiper, Why did God allow the destruction of the temple and his system, if it so critical for everyone ? The Talmud by necessity changed God's system, I have no comment on that. However, even you must realize that you worship in a fashion different from what God gave Moses, and what was required. You may contend that the Rabbi's after the Temple and in essence, the original Jewish faith were destroyed, heard the voice of God, and came up with an alternate plan, I have no comment on that. However, you rail at the Jews who recognized the Messiah, and at his guidance and instruction, wrote the NT, the word of God. So you, believe in a modified and changed system, but do everything possible, (with no evidence, no effect) to undermine the Jews who, from the Christian perspective, had it absolutely correct. If that isn't total arrogance, I don't what is

I wouldnt really want to say that God's law was a failure, it was more of what Israel did with that law that was bad. God doesnt fail in anything. He is always right, even if we dont understand something. The law given to Moses was to the children of Israel in the wilderness, some of those laws still apply to us today, yet there is a "new covenant" for us through Christ. The new one is different.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Jesus was the living representation of the Law. Anyone who lives by his example lives by the Law.



It does not say that we have been released from the Law with the death of Jesus. Paul never said that, ever. Shmogie is the only one making that claim. In Romans 7:6-7 it is saying, again, those who have "died to what was bound" to them (died to sin) have been released from the Law to serve in the newness of Spirit. As I have explained before, those who live in the Spirit live by the Law and will not break the Law. If you don't break the Law (sin), then the Law can't condemn you. That is what it means to be "free from the Law." And he was saying that the command "thou shall not covet" gave him the knowledge that coveting is wrong, and that because he was "fleshy, sold under sin" the sin of coveting temped him to sin through the Torah. That's not say the commandment is bad, but the sin is bad. On the contrary, in the same chapter, he says that the Torah is "holy" and "spiritual." This is why it is important to live in the Spirit because only by the Spirit can the Torah be obeyed and fulfilled in one's heart (Jeremiah 31:33). If you don't understand this, then it means you'd rather be a materialist and refuse to understand and apply the spirit of the Law, and only go through the motions of the Law like the Pharisees. You are ignorant. You think you understand Paul, but you don't. Oh, and by the way, even if Peter was illiterate doesn't mean his epistle is a forgery. He could have dictated to a scribe, if he didn't write it himself. Such an allegation is ridiculous and unbelievable.



Colleagues? LOL! Are you serious? The ones who charged him with blasphemy and sentenced him to death were his colleagues? Sorry, but Jesus was not a Pharisee because he wasn't a Jew.
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious..................................which glory is passing away,how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious ? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness has much more glory, for what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 2 cor. 3-7. Tell me, those of you who want to be under the law,do you not hear the law ? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bond woman, the other by a free woman.......... these are the two covenants, the one from Mt. Sinai, which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar..... corresponds to Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, Sarah. Gal. 4 :21-27 He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to judge all of the living and dead. To him, all the Prophets witness, that, through his name, whoever BELIEVES in Him, will receive remission of sins. Acts 10: 41-43 Most assuredly I say to you, he who BELIEVES in ME, has everlasting life . John 6: 40
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I wouldnt really want to say that God's law was a failure, it was more of what Israel did with that law that was bad. God doesnt fail in anything. He is always right, even if we dont understand something. The law given to Moses was to the children of Israel in the wilderness, some of those laws still apply to us today, yet there is a "new covenant" for us through Christ. The new one is different.
It was a failure in that it didn't do for Israel what they wanted, and God had to prove this to them. They truly believed they could keep the law, and by doing so be righteous. Obviously they could not, else there would not need to be a day of atonement for ALL the people. Once this was proven, Christ provided a better way, the right way, not by keeping the old covenant of the law, salvation earned, but by faith in he who could and did keep the law perfectly for everyone who has faith in him. God didn't fail, nor the law, the people failed. Yes, under the new covenant many of the commands of the old law are reiterated, not to keep for salvation, but to strive to keep by the power of the Spirit because of salvation.
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
I wouldnt really want to say that God's law was a failure, it was more of what Israel did with that law that was bad. God doesnt fail in anything. He is always right, even if we dont understand something. The law given to Moses was to the children of Israel in the wilderness, some of those laws still apply to us today, yet there is a "new covenant" for us through Christ. The new one is different.

Mouse over Jeremiah 31:33. The only difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is the former was written in stone and the latter is written in the hearts of believers. (Romans 11:27, Hebrews 8:10) The principles are the same. This nonsense about Jesus and Paul changing or abolishing part of or all the Law is nothing but pseudo-Christian garbage.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
It was a failure in that it didn't do for Israel what they wanted, and God had to prove this to them. They truly believed they could keep the law, and by doing so be righteous. Obviously they could not, else there would not need to be a day of atonement for ALL the people. Once this was proven, Christ provided a better way, the right way, not by keeping the old covenant of the law, salvation earned, but by faith in he who could and did keep the law perfectly for everyone who has faith in him. God didn't fail, nor the law, the people failed. Yes, under the new covenant many of the commands of the old law are reiterated, not to keep for salvation, but to strive to keep by the power of the Spirit because of salvation.

It was a failure in that it didn't do for Israel what they wanted,
It was Israel that was bad, not God's law and God's law was not the failure, it was Israel that failed our Creator.
God didn't fail, nor the law, the people failed.
Right, that's what I was org. saying....
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Mouse over Jeremiah 31:33. The only difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is the former was written in stone and the latter is written in the hearts of believers. (Romans 11:27, Hebrews 8:10) The principles are the same. This nonsense about Jesus and Paul changing or abolishing part of or all the Law is nothing but pseudo-Christian garbage.
You are the pseudo Christian, not I. After all, you contradict Paul, the immediate post Apostolic fathers, all the Reformers, all the evangelical Christian scholars, many of the Catholic scholars on and on it goes. Nonsense re your characterization of the new covenant, if it is just the same old law, why is it called new ? Why not just say the law has to be kept from your heart. Why did Paul say one observes a day per week for God, another does not observe any day for God, let each decide ? You keep the sabbath, it was changed in a large part of the world because of the date line, you can approach the dateline on friday sundown, then hey presto, in a second it is saturday sundown, no sabbath. What about Paul's condemnation of the Galatians for keeping, days, festivals and feasts within context of the law. Aren't you working your way into salvation by doing what he condemned them for ? Christ said he fulfilled the law, fulfilled means ended, if it has been fulfilled, ended. You cannot save yourself by keeping the law. No one has, and no one will. Either be a Christian and be saved by Grace, faith or recognize that you will be condemned by the law, with no Grace. You think you don't need Christ, because you perfectly keep the law, stand in the judgement all alone and tell him "I did it, just like you did !". I will stand in the judgement and tell him "thank you for providing a way of salvation through you, by faith, without your unmerited favor, I would be lost". Lets see who goes where
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Or rather you are clueless about what he's talking about.

Did you read the quote? Probably not! Paul was talking about the Decalogue. Where is it written "Thou shall not covet" if not in the Decalogue? (Romans 7:7) Paul despised the Law, Hawkins. While Jesus taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, (Luke 16:29-31) Paul would teach the Jews to abandon the Jewish customs taught by Moses. (Acts 21:21)

God's plan, as He gradually reveals to humans, is to build an eternity we call Heaven for His creatures such as the angels and humans living with Him forever. However God hates something which we call sin.

Would you please provide us with the quote that God's plan is to build an eternity you call Heaven? What I have is that Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen.3:22,23) It means that eternity is an attribute that belongs with God only and cannot be shared with man.

However under the influence of Satan, the first lineage of humans sinned when put in Eden (a place inside God's realm). Since then humans are driven out of God's realm, living in the current planet earth where Satan is literally said to be the god of this world. When humans are no longer inside God's realm, with Satan's influence being much stronger, no human can thus enter the final heaven by abiding the Law. This point is proven (by God) so it came the story of Noah. God's purpose for humans (to live the eternal Heaven) was defeated. Humans as a whole will fail the final judgment of God's Law. Thus the existence of earth serves no purpose but a pool of sins which God hates. It's thus time to destroy this pool of sins once and for all (by water).

You speak about Satan as a being and, there is no such a thing. Satan is only a concept to illustrated the evil inclination in man. On the other hand, Satan could not be literally the god of this world because God is of an absolute Oneness. There is no other god to share the universe with. (Isaiah 46:5)

Through the blood of Jesus Christ God can now grant a series of covenants as a mean of salvation to humans. A covenant simply says, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ. Each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and saints).

You have forgotten that Jesus was a loyal Jew who came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19) The Prophets of the Most High were inspired by God Himself to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezek. 18:3,20; Jeremiah 31:30) It means that salvation does not come through the blood of Jesus but through the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19; Luke 16:29-31)

Satan (and his angels) on the other hand will stress his influence, humans will thus sin further to an extent that an older covenant may fail in identifying the righteous (the harvest). Then it is time for God to upgrade His covenant to a newer one by granting more Grace, such that His Elect (the righteous) will become savable.

It happens though, that the New Covenant upgraded by HaShem was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah; no Gentiles included, unless they join God's Covenant with Israel according to Halacha aka Jewish law. (Isa. 56:1-8)

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV2011) 20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It had to be Paul because, the purpose of the Law has never been to increase trespasses but to increase Law observance so that people be saved from the troubles of life as a result of graves sins.

The New Covenant brought in directly by Jesus Himself became the final covenant because it has the maximum Grace granted. Under this covenant, our salvation is measured by our faith alone. Faith in Christ becomes the only rule (unlike Mosaic Law) applied for us to be saved. You believe with Faith in a correct fashion then you will be saved (brought to the final Heaven) legitimately and openly.

Jesus brought no new covenant. The opposite is rather true that he taught us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law according to the Covenant given to Israel in the Mount Sinai. (Luke 16:29-31; Mat. 5:17-19)

Whether one can fulfill what a covenant said will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself, because all the Grace is granted under His name. His blood gives Him the right to grant the Grace to anyone He wishes though He will judge fairly and He will judge what is deep inside your heart. The angels and saints will also be the witnesses to see if you have fulfilled the covenant. As for the New Covenant, Jesus will judge if your faith qualifies you to enter the final Heaven.

Sorry to rain on your parade but Jesus has been dead for 2000 years and, the dead can judge nothing if you read Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.

If you are considered (by Jesus Christ) to fail the covenant, then you will be judged by the Law which will sentence you to death (the second death) with whatever consequences it brings.

"The second death!" What on earth are you talking about! For a second death to exist, one must return from the first one and,according to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, once dead, no one will ever return from Sheol aka the grave if you read II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalms 49:12,20; etc.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Ben, your logic fails here. You say no Jew or witness of the events wrote the NT, yet you quote the Christ from the NT, quotations you think support your position, ignoring those where the Christ destroys your position,i.e. " I HAVE FULFILLED THE LAW", Your alleged logic is supercilious . So why are you even debating about a series of books you believe aren;'t legitimate ? How can you even think you can understand this TRUTH, when you reject it ? If the Christ was in harmony with the old covenant, why did the Jews conspire with the Romans to murder him? Oh, that part you reject, right ? You say he is dead, really ? PROVE IT. Actually, he is alive, Jews more and more are recognizing this, and have accepted your Messiah. It is interesting that his followers have ensured the very existence of Israel. He desired this, thus God, desired this, thus his followers desire it. Ben, you really have no business being in a Christian discussion, you don't even understand the concepts, and have no connection with the Spirit. You are a non believing agitator, here only to complain, criticize, and arrogantly promote your ignorant position. Return to a Jewish group. where you will have more sympathy regarding your worship of the Torah. where you all can slap yourselves on the back about how good you look in Gods eyes. Return to your Talmudic Judaism, which wasn't what God ordered in the law in the first place. You are truly pissing into the wind here
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Ben, your logic fails here. You say no Jew or witness of the events wrote the NT, yet you quote the Christ from the NT, quotations you think support your position, ignoring those where the Christ destroys your position,i.e. " I HAVE FULFILLED THE LAW", Your alleged logic is supercilious . So why are you even debating about a series of books you believe aren;'t legitimate ? How can you even think you can understand this TRUTH, when you reject it ? If the Christ was in harmony with the old covenant, why did the Jews conspire with the Romans to murder him? Oh, that part you reject, right ? You say he is dead, really ? PROVE IT. Actually, he is alive, Jews more and more are recognizing this, and have accepted your Messiah. It is interesting that his followers have ensured the very existence of Israel. He desired this, thus God, desired this, thus his followers desire it. Ben, you really have no business being in a Christian discussion, you don't even understand the concepts, and have no connection with the Spirit. You are a non believing agitator, here only to complain, criticize, and arrogantly promote your ignorant position. Return to a Jewish group. where you will have more sympathy regarding your worship of the Torah. where you all can slap yourselves on the back about how good you look in Gods eyes. Return to your Talmudic Judaism, which wasn't what God ordered in the law in the first place. You are truly pissing into the wind here

Right! No Jew could write against his own Faith. The NT was written on the basis of Replacement Theology which is the main reason why I am in this forum. To look for a Jewish forum would be tantamount to cheat - chattering of common beliefs. Learning is found in controversy. I am debating the NT because the authors have picked up on a Jew to fight against his own Faith which just happened to be the same as mine. From reading your NT, I have come to the conclusion that about 20% is possible to agree that is according to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. Now, you want me to prove that a man who died 2000 years ago is dead! That's funny! If you want an evidence for that, have you ever met a man 2000 years old? Behold, proof that Jesus is dead.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Jesus was the living representation of the Law. Anyone who lives by his example lives by the Law.

It does not say that we have been released from the Law with the death of Jesus. Paul never said that, ever. Shmogie is the only one making that claim. In Romans 7:6-7 it is saying, again, those who have "died to what was bound" to them (died to sin) have been released from the Law to serve in the newness of Spirit. As I have explained before, those who live in the Spirit live by the Law and will not break the Law. If you don't break the Law (sin), then the Law can't condemn you. That is what it means to be "free from the Law." And he was saying that the command "thou shall not covet" gave him the knowledge that coveting is wrong, and that because he was "fleshy, sold under sin" the sin of coveting temped him to sin through the Torah. That's not say the commandment is bad, but the sin is bad. On the contrary, in the same chapter, he says that the Torah is "holy" and "spiritual." This is why it is important to live in the Spirit because only by the Spirit can the Torah be obeyed and fulfilled in one's heart (Jeremiah 31:33). If you don't understand this, then it means you'd rather be a materialist and refuse to understand and apply the spirit of the Law, and only go through the motions of the Law like the Pharisees. You are ignorant. You think you understand Paul, but you don't. Oh, and by the way, even if Peter was illiterate doesn't mean his epistle is a forgery. He could have dictated to a scribe if he didn't write it himself. Such an allegation is ridiculous and unbelievable.

[Romans 8:1-8] There is, then, now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah יהושע, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the Torah of the Spirit of the life in Messiah יהושע has set me free from the law of sin and of death. For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed is it able, and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.

Colleagues? LOL! Are you serious? The ones who charged him with blasphemy and sentenced him to death were his colleagues? Sorry, but Jesus was not a Pharisee because he wasn't a Jew.

Yes, the Pharisees where Jesus' colleagues, if not for any other reasons they tried to save Jesus twice from being arrested. The first time from Herod who had sent his men to arrest him and the Pharisees revealed that secret to Jesus and he escaped arresting. The second time around was from Pilate when Jesus' disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in
Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time and the Pharisees warned him to stop his disciples or he would be arrested for insurrection. Probably, Jesus was enjoying his parade and said that if they stopped, the stones would cry. (Luke 19:37-40) Soon later Jesus was arrested and condemned to the cross with the verdict INRI.

Wow! Are you serious by saying that Jesus was not a Jew! How do you explain circumcision on the 8th day of born? How to you explain he being addressed as a Rabbi by a Pharisee called Nicodemus? (John 3:1-3) How do you take him as the Messiah if he was not a Jew? I'll stop here because I am sure you don't have enough time to explain many, many more.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Wrong, God's law, the Torah, is a failure, something better has come. Christ said " you shall know the truth, and the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE " You aren't free,you are bound. As I asked the other Torah worshiper, Why did God allow the destruction of the temple and his system, if it so critical for everyone ? The Talmud by necessity changed God's system, I have no comment on that. However, even you must realize that you worship in a fashion different from what God gave Moses, and what was required. You may contend that the Rabbi's after the Temple and in essence, the original Jewish faith were destroyed, heard the voice of God, and came up with an alternate plan, I have no comment on that. However, you rail at the Jews who recognized the Messiah, and at his guidance and instruction, wrote the NT, the word of God. So you, believe in a modified and changed system, but do everything possible, (with no evidence, no effect) to undermine the Jews who, from the Christian perspective, had it absolutely correct. If that isn't total arrogance, I don't what is

Yeah! Something better taught by Jesus! I know. He taught us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) That's not something better but the same found in his gospel aka the Tanach. That's the truth that sets us free from the troubles caused by transgressions of the Law. The truth, mind you, would never set you free from the Law. When Paul said in Romans 7:6 that he was released from the Law, he was only looking for an excuse to continue serving sin in the flesh. (Romans 7:25)
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Yeah! Something better taught by Jesus! I know. He taught us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) That's not something better but the same found in his gospel aka the Tanach. That's the truth that sets us free from the troubles caused by transgressions of the Law. The truth, mind you, would never set you free from the Law. When Paul said in Romans 7:6 that he was released from the Law, he was only looking for an excuse to continue serving sin in the flesh. (Romans 7:25)
WRONG ! You are unable to understand that he was talking to ISRAEL when ISRAEL was still under the law. It totally changed with his death, resurrection and ministry to the world. He said I, ME, THE SON OF GOD, THE MESSIAH, have fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, finished the law for salvation. Just like with Abraham, now belief, faith, is accounted, imputed, for Righteousness. Sin is ANY factor in your life, thought, action, as described in THE NT that puts you out of harmony with God. You are SAVED by Faith, The Spirit leads and guides you away from sin. I know, you can;t grasp this. As your favorite Apostle, Paul, says, your mind is clouded. So you just keep jumping through those hoops, which you don';t and can't really do, and keep worshiping the ministry of death, and keep patting yourself on the back for what a great guy you are. That is between you and God.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Right! No Jew could write against his own Faith. The NT was written on the basis of Replacement Theology which is the main reason why I am in this forum. To look for a Jewish forum would be tantamount to cheat - chattering of common beliefs. Learning is found in controversy. I am debating the NT because the authors have picked up on a Jew to fight against his own Faith which just happened to be the same as mine. From reading your NT, I have come to the conclusion that about 20% is possible to agree that is according to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. Now, you want me to prove that a man who died 2000 years ago is dead! That's funny! If you want an evidence for that, have you ever met a man 2000 years old? Behold, proof that Jesus is dead.
Pitiful Ben, truly pitiful. You are in a Christian thread on the CHRISTIAN doctrine of atonement. Which you are singularly unable to grasp, let alone comment about. Sigh, you speak of replacement theology, another term you don';t understand and mis characterize. So, by your own admission you have no interest in the thread, THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE, you want to pimp your own insane ideas, and to pimp Judaism, which as Christians we reject as a obsolete and dead theology. You freely admit your goal is to create disruption in a CHRISTIAN discussion, which makes you a Jewish, theological, terrorist. Disgusting
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
You are in a Christian thread on the CHRISTIAN doctrine of atonement.....

I have no interest in the topic and I do not intend to weigh in on it. However, you seem to misunderstand the rules of the forum. The original poster did not post this thread on the Christian DIR, which limits participation by non-Christians to respectful questions. Nor did the original poster post this thread on the Same Faith Debates subforum which could have limited participation of any kind to only Christians. Rather, this thread was posted to the Scriptural Debates/Biblical Debates sub-subforum, which allows participation by any forum member, be that member Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, Jain, Baha'i or whatever.

It doesn't matter whether you believe that Ben Avraham brings nothing to the discussion. It doesn't matter whether you believe his arguments are specious. It doesn't matter if you believe he is unable to grasp whatever concepts you are advancing. The rules of the forum allow him to participate.

You are, of course, free to ignore anything that he posts.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I have no interest in the topic and I do not intend to weigh in on it. However, you seem to misunderstand the rules of the forum. The original poster did not post this thread on the Christian DIR, which limits participation by non-Christians to respectful questions. Nor did the original poster post this thread on the Same Faith Debates subforum which could have limited participation of any kind to only Christians. Rather, this thread was posted to the Scriptural Debates/Biblical Debates sub-subforum, which allows participation by any forum member, be that member Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, Jain, Baha'i or whatever.

It doesn't matter whether you believe that Ben Avraham brings nothing to the discussion. It doesn't matter whether you believe his arguments are specious. It doesn't matter if you believe he is unable to grasp whatever concepts you are advancing. The rules of the forum allow him to participate.

You are, of course, free to ignore anything that he posts.
OK, why then would a non Christian have any interest in posting opinions about a Christian doctrine ? Just because he can ?
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
OK, why then would a non Christian have any interest in posting opinions about a Christian doctrine ? Just because he can ?

I am not supporting or condemning Ben Avraham's participation in this thread. I can think of what I consider to be legitimate reasons why a Jew or other non-Christian might want to weigh in on the discussion, but I am not a mind reader. I'm not going to guess his rationale. Your best bet is to ask him yourself.

If you believe that Ben Avraham is abusing his right to participate on this thread, if you believe that he is, in some manner, violating the rules of the forum, you should report his post(s) and let the administrators sort it out.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I am not supporting or condemning Ben Avraham's participation in this thread. I can think of what I consider to be legitimate reasons why a Jew or other non-Christian might want to weigh in on the discussion, but I am not a mind reader. I'm not going to guess his rationale. Your best bet is to ask him yourself.

If you believe that Ben Avraham is abusing his right to participate on this thread, if you believe that he is, in some manner, violating the rules of the forum, you should report his post(s) and let the administrators sort it out.
No, I don't play the game you suggest. Like the tree in the forest, all the noise in the world doesn't exist if it isn't heard
 
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