The Arrogance of Both Science and Religion

[BilliardsBall]

So, He did not really die for our sins. He got tortured for our sins, right?

And again, there are humans that probably went through much bigger ordeals than that without a big daddy in heaven.

Anyway, if I can walk on water and turn water into wine, I would magically deactivate my nervous system and simulate some pain, in order to achieve the required objective. Maybe He did, how can we say?

Ciao

- viole

Jesus took the wrath of God for our sins, He died a death by torture, yes.

Your theorizing that Jesus didn't feel pain or shame is 1) not what the scripture teaches 2) suggesting that God lies to people. This is what happens to a mind that turns away from God IMHO.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's small compared to a sacrifice where someone is killed forever.

There is no getting around the fact that the dying/rising demi-god mythology doesn't merge well with the Jewish "god needs a sacrifice to forgive sins" model. It works with Passover and Yom-Kippur and the annual temple sacrifice, anything with animal sacrifice. But once you use a demi-god as a sacrifice it doesn't make sense? He comes back to life for one which is a great way to "defeat death" and give followers a place in the afterlife and all that.
But there isn't really any sacrifice? It's just being tortured.

But Christians never say Jesus was tortured for our sins, they are very specific about "he died so we could live" and all that.

The Bible says Jesus experienced God's wrath, experiences shame, and suffered for our sins. All those statements are biblical.

And He's not a demi-God but God. Only God could take our collective punishment and the wrath of God.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, the carrot of eternal rewards has inspired many a population to endure any number of hardships. So for Jesus, a done deal does somewhat undercut the severity of his torture. It is temporary, after all. Heaven is forever.
During history a lot of people were crucified. Spat upon, beaten and tortured. Some were even massacred. Some have lived in horrific circumstances in various slavery enterprises through the centuries. The horrors of various wars left people wishing for death. None had a guarantee that they would be resurrected like Jesus. Just a faint hope for a reward from a grateful deity, which various persecuted peoples have clung to in order to survive any number of hardships. Which I suppose is why Jesus has resonated with many people through the years. Even inspired them to face violence with a "stiff upper lip." But the guarantee still takes a little wind out of the sails of the "Mel Gibson" interpretation of Jesus' sacrifice all the same.

Perhaps you would be willing to undergo crucifixion and scourging to show us how "small" it was.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If I knew I was going to be alive at the end (after dying, mind you) and that it would make the world a better place, why not?

Many people have endured far more torture for much more minor causes and have accepted that as part of how things work. Think of someone like Nelson Mandela. Or any number of people in China today, or in Russia. There are very devoted activists that want to see a better world and are willing to be tortured for far longer than a day or two to get that better world. And they don't have the promise of actually living through the experience.

NOT what I said, what I said was: "Perhaps you would be willing to undergo crucifixion and scourging to show us how "small" it was." While you're on the cross, you can tell us loudly, "NOT A BIG DEAL, SINCE I'M THE HERO HERE."

 

[Polymath257]

NOT what I said, what I said was: "Perhaps you would be willing to undergo crucifixion and scourging to show us how "small" it was." While you're on the cross, you can tell us loudly, "NOT A BIG DEAL, SINCE I'M THE HERO HERE."

Well, torture *is* a big deal. But that isn't the point of the Jesus story, is it? The point, as has been pointed out, is that he 'died for our sins', not that he was 'tortured for our sins'. And, since he supposedly knew he was going to be revived in three days, dying really isn't that big of a deal *for him*, is it? And both the dying and the torture have been endured by *many* people in support of their causes.

So the whole Jesus story is, well, a ho-hum in my book.

 

[viole]

Jesus took the wrath of God for our sins, He died a death by torture, yes.

Your theorizing that Jesus didn't feel pain or shame is 1) not what the scripture teaches 2) suggesting that God lies to people. This is what happens to a mind that turns away from God IMHO.

This is what happens to a mind who thinks, sorry.
Again, that sacrifice was lame. There are stories of people, in war or during a dictatorship, who endured the same or much worse without big daddy pulling them out of the grave.

So, again, lame. Especially because, according to the myth, He knew from the start He was not risking all that much. I really wonder why Christians think it is so awesome.

Ciao

- vioe

 

[sooda]

Well, the carrot of eternal rewards has inspired many a population to endure any number of hardships. So for Jesus, a done deal does somewhat undercut the severity of his torture. It is temporary, after all. Heaven is forever.

During history a lot of people were crucified. Spat upon, beaten and tortured. Some were even massacred. Some have lived in horrific circumstances in various slavery enterprises through the centuries. The horrors of various wars left people wishing for death. None had a guarantee that they would be resurrected like Jesus. Just a faint hope for a reward from a grateful deity, which various persecuted peoples have clung to in order to survive any number of hardships. Which I suppose is why Jesus has resonated with many people through the years.

Even inspired them to face violence with a "stiff upper lip." But the guarantee still takes a little wind out of the sails of the "Mel Gibson" interpretation of Jesus' sacrifice all the same.

I get it absolutely......... Well said.

 

[SomeRandom]

Perhaps you would be willing to undergo crucifixion and scourging to show us how "small" it was.

Sure. I mean, according to the quirks in my family tradition, this is the last life I have before heaven. Bring it on, I say. Temporary pain is nothing against everlasting bliss, after all.
Doesn't change the fact that people were crucified who had merely a hope of a good afterlife, not a guarantee. So the undercut remains.

 

[Workman]

Our ways of life is BASED on beliefs..this is what makes you; YOU. Your choices are your creating. Your imagination are its creations from your many beliefs. All this will make its reality through your doings. But the biggest part that controls all of it is: Belief! Beliefs are the control of your doings..your sayings, your thinking..your everything.

What you think, is what you know..
What you Say, is what you are..
And NOW..you have become WHY.

For this is ‘WHAT’ makes ‘WHO’ you are..

When you know who you are,
Than you will know the BEST of who you will. And than! Be bested of you, WILL now know your always RIGHT for, therefore JUMPing over another ones pathway and claiming of them your(‘WHY’) they are wrong..because you’ve based everything ONLY from what YOU KNOW is your right.

YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO TEST THIS OPPORTUNITY! For you are still living in your own selfishness.

everyone has a pathway.
When one starts..one needs something to start of their path.
What ever you chose, you became good from it..therefore it become your WAY of walking its path as being ‘YOU’..and for that is your CLAIM to be the way of being RIGHT for YOU and your SPIRIT! For are you its Proof of being your RIGHT in your pathway..but its to your deceiver on your pathway whom blinds you to ‘KNOWing EVERYTHING’. Therefore accordingly to you; you KNOW what IS THE RIGHT way...than now have
claimed ‘The’ others are your WRONGs.

There is no such thing as being right, it is only a MATTER of YOU..being WRONGED.

For thus why my absence worth your greed..for your lostness of your own problems that you are unaware of..I TOLD YOU!
The only way out..is to go in.
Let go of the outside..and know your inside! This all is in the bible..GODS words!.keep your sabbath! And work..work..WORK! There is a reason for everything, God works through a mysterious way..because it was MEANT TO BE..not for your easy way of getting to know God, but for your HARD earnest to see God. I don’t cheat God, that is not my Job..that is your Job from your free-will Gift of being alive to find out YOURSELFs. My job is not to give you Peace(I don’t have that authority) BUT to divide those that are not from God. That is my understand from My beloved God.
Don’t ask me for your Peace..I have got mine(inner Peace) But ask God Yourself ..if your worthy enough by your efforts.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's small compared to a sacrifice where someone is killed forever.

There is no getting around the fact that the dying/rising demi-god mythology doesn't merge well with the Jewish "god needs a sacrifice to forgive sins" model. It works with Passover and Yom-Kippur and the annual temple sacrifice, anything with animal sacrifice. But once you use a demi-god as a sacrifice it doesn't make sense? He comes back to life for one which is a great way to "defeat death" and give followers a place in the afterlife and all that.
But there isn't really any sacrifice? It's just being tortured.

But Christians never say Jesus was tortured for our sins, they are very specific about "he died so we could live" and all that.

I guess you've never read the scriptures prophesying/confirming that "Jesus rose on the third day after His SUFFERINGS began"--torture.

Again, "not a big deal" is missing the obvious--stripped naked, beaten overnight, scourged and crucified AND God's wrath for our sin poured out on Christ. So much so that God darkened the sky.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sure. I mean, according to the quirks in my family tradition, this is the last life I have before heaven. Bring it on, I say. Temporary pain is nothing against everlasting bliss, after all.
Doesn't change the fact that people were crucified who had merely a hope of a good afterlife, not a guarantee. So the undercut remains.

Luckily, Jesus rose from the dead, providing that very guarantee.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is what happens to a mind who thinks, sorry.
Again, that sacrifice was lame. There are stories of people, in war or during a dictatorship, who endured the same or much worse without big daddy pulling them out of the grave.

So, again, lame. Especially because, according to the myth, He knew from the start He was not risking all that much. I really wonder why Christians think it is so awesome.

Ciao

- vioe

Which non-Jesus sacrifice did God pour out all of His wrath upon, for everyone's sin, for all time?

 

[Polymath257]

I guess you've never read the scriptures prophesying/confirming that "Jesus rose on the third day after His SUFFERINGS began"--torture.

Again, "not a big deal" is missing the obvious--stripped naked, beaten overnight, scourged and crucified AND God's wrath for our sin poured out on Christ. So much so that God darkened the sky.

Compared to what many others have experienced? About average for those tortured. Maybe even on the light side. Compared to what happens in China? or what happened under Pinochet? not so extreme.

 

[sooda]

I guess you've never read the scriptures prophesying/confirming that "Jesus rose on the third day after His SUFFERINGS began"--torture.

Again, "not a big deal" is missing the obvious--stripped naked, beaten overnight, scourged and crucified AND God's wrath for our sin poured out on Christ. So much so that God darkened the sky.

"I guess you've never read the scriptures prophesying/confirming that "Jesus rose on the third day after His SUFFERINGS began"--torture.'

Which scriptures?

 

[viole]

Which non-Jesus sacrifice did God pour out all of His wrath upon, for everyone's sin, for all time?

I don’t know, but I am positive there were normal humans who suffered vastly more (and did not come back alive and kicking after the weekend).

So, it seems like it was a bargain. Or our sins were not such a l, anyway. Don’t you think so?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SomeRandom]

Luckily, Jesus rose from the dead, providing that very guarantee.

So he provides a guarantee that one will rise from the dead?
I was always assured his sacrifice provided the way to heaven after death. Not that he’d lead a zombie apocalypse.

 

[sooda]

The Bible says Jesus experienced God's wrath, experiences shame, and suffered for our sins. All those statements are biblical.

And He's not a demi-God but God. Only God could take our collective punishment and the wrath of God.

Why did Jesus have to suffer God's wrath? Who controlled that?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Compared to what many others have experienced? About average for those tortured. Maybe even on the light side. Compared to what happens in China? or what happened under Pinochet? not so extreme.

Again, you are using logic, while not using it to address the Bible's actual statements:

Jesus took on the wrath of God for every person, for all time. God died/split on the cross. Men punished/tortured Christ then the sky became dark for hours as God poured His wrath on the Christ. A human would be immolated.

 

[BilliardsBall]

"I guess you've never read the scriptures prophesying/confirming that "Jesus rose on the third day after His SUFFERINGS began"--torture.'

Which scriptures?

Start with Matthew 16:21.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why did Jesus have to suffer God's wrath? Who controlled that?

One person can step in front of a bus to save one other person. Jesus took the wrath due the WORLD of people.