The Anti-Semitic Card

[Zardoz]

Yes Virginia, that is classic antisemitism.

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Levite thank you for the answers.

 

[Alceste]

Wait what? Why contempt for the idea of the chosen people? It has no downside to you so why the contempt? 613 laws vs 7 laws. I can clearly see why a non-jew should feel contempt. Though no one is stopping you to live after those 613 laws.

You have to be kidding me - you don't think there is any down side to believing you and your "team" are more special to "THE" god than everybody else? I think it's deranged, but if it's any consolation, Jewish people don't have a strangle-hold on that sick and dangerous notion. Many sects of Christianity are into that kind of thinking as well, as are many sects of Islam.

And what has the state of Israel to do with this?

Criticizing Israel for war crimes in the occupied territories, a domestic policy of apartheid, the expansion of illegal settlements, violations of the Geneva convention on collective punishment and other such war crimes is only one of the many opinions that elicit howls of "anti-semitism" from the Jewish Defense League and those in media and government who dance to their tune.

 

[Flankerl]

You have to be kidding me - you don't think there is any down side to believing you and your "team" are more special to "THE" god than everybody else?

We aren't more special. We are different.

 

[Alceste]

But you do realise that there is nothing in judaism that favors a jew over a gentile right? Overall its more difficult to be a (oh i hate the term but i will use it) religious jew and be on the same step as a righteous gentile.

Should we change the words? How about we are cookies while gentiles are muffins. I would bet that some people would even take that as an offense.

How about we're all just people? We all have an ethnic heritage of some kind or other, and if there is any kind of creator god, then clearly She must have made us all. To believe that God Herself is primarily concerned with people with a Jewish heritage and doesn't half give a toss about the rest of us is barbaric.

Of course, I would feel differently if the Jewish god wasn't supposed to be the ONLY god. If Judaism taught that every cultural group had its very own god, primarily concerned with that individual culture's well-being, I wouldn't find the notion so off-putting.

From the perspective of a philosophical Taoist (such as myself), you simply can not state that one group is particularly beloved without acknowledging that you believe another is particularly despised.

 

[Levite]

How about we're all just people? We all have an ethnic heritage of some kind or other, and if there is any kind of creator god, then clearly She must have made us all. To believe that God Herself is primarily concerned with people with a Jewish heritage and doesn't half give a toss about the rest of us is barbaric.

I said above:

I have seen several times a common misconception that the term "chosen people" (which is a mistranslation anyhow) is thought to indicate superiority or supremacism, as though we think that we're God's favorites. And that is not at all what it means: we have been chosen to accept additional responsibilities and duties that other peoples have not been taxed with. Nor does it indicate exclusivity: we have been chosen to be the Jewish People, those who keep the Torah. Presumably, God could and would choose other peoples for different responsibilities, with different responsibilities and duties.

I don't know why that shouldn't be sufficient.

 

[Flankerl]

To believe that God Herself is primarily concerned with people with a Jewish heritage and doesn't half give a toss about the rest of us is barbaric.

Which is not part of judaism. Not for orthodox, liberal, conservative, hasidic...
HaShem created everything. And since the soul of everyone comes from HaShem and everyone got a soul...

Of course, I would feel differently if the Jewish god wasn't supposed to be the ONLY god. If Judaism taught that every cultural group had its very own god, primarily concerned with that individual culture's well-being, I wouldn't find the notion so off-putting.

When was the last time judaism was concerned with missionary work? You are free to live after whatever you want to believe in. Have fun.

 

[LuisDantas]

I see that the concept of a chosen people has nuances that I wasn't aware of. Still, I find it less than safe. Way too rigit, way too passive of abuse for my taste.

I simply can't have a lot of sympathy for the idea of a people who consider themselves set aside by God for some specific purpose, even if they believe or allow for the possibility that other people are also set aside for God for other purposes. Such beliefs have a story of leading to disaster.

 

[Alceste]

I said above:



I don't know why that shouldn't be sufficient.

Well, it could be that I'm getting my impression of the "Chosen People" thing mainly from Christians rather than Jewish people.

I still think the idea does more harm than good. Nationalism / tribalism / cultural exclusivity / racial identification and all such stuff has a distinct tendency to lead to the oppression of minorities or violence between different tribes.

 

[Caladan]

An involuntary snort of amusement at the thread and some of its pearls of wisdom such as 'reform Jews and stuff'.

 

[Caladan]

I've found that anti-semites often take issue with the concept of anti-semitism.

I know, it sounds totally bizarre, but it's true.

LOL.
I knew we could keep it simple and down to earth.
it is rather astonishing and amusing though, isn't it?

 

[EverChanging]

Well, it could be that I'm getting my impression of the "Chosen People" thing mainly from Christians rather than Jewish people.

It is mainly Christians, especially fundamentalists, that harp on that in a very literal way.

I still think the idea does more harm than good. Nationalism / tribalism / cultural exclusivity / racial identification and all such stuff has a distinct tendency to lead to the oppression of minorities or violence between different tribes.

This is true, but honestly, most Jewish people are not orthodox. Many, if not most, are secular. And even the orthodox have very nuanced views on this. A minority does take it to an extreme.

 

[Alceste]

It is mainly Christians, especially fundamentalists, that harp on that in a very literal way.



This is true, but honestly, most Jewish people are not orthodox. Many, if not most, are secular. And even the orthodox have very nuanced views on this. A minority does take it to an extreme.

True enough. My Jewish friends, acquaintances and heroes (mostly comedians) are all pretty secular. My closest Jewish friend is a pagan pantheist. The chosen people thing has never even come up. OTOH, every Christian fundie to whom I've ever mentioned my unfavorable opinion of how hard Israel squeezes the balls of Palestinians goes on and on about it.

What is that all about?

Most of my irritation is reserved for organizations like the JDL. I have contempt for all authoritarian propaganda outfits regardless of their cultural affiliations. OTOH, I have equal admiration for B'Tselem, just as I admire most human rights organizations regardless of their cultural affiliations. Be that as it may, I'm sometimes accused of anti-semitism because I think the Zionist settlers in the occupied territories and the IDF should let up with the ball-squeezing of their non-Jewish neighbours.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

As a person who had ancestors in the Holocaust I am very much divided on this issue. On one hand anti-semitism does sometimes take place, but I feel it's an often overused term. I've seen people say that if you question Jewish beliefs too critically you're an anti-semite. I've seen people say if you disagree with Zionism you're an anti-semite. That word gets thrown around too much.

 

[horiturk]

when you ,a genocidal tribe of warlords,declare yourself the chosen people of the God of the universe,expect some criticism

 

[Rainbow Mage]

when you ,a genocidal tribe of warlords,declare yourself the chosen people of the God of the universe,expect some criticism

I agree in a way, which I don't claim that. Being Jewish makes me no better then anyone else. Being Jewish isn't easy, even when you're not religious, there's baggage that comes with it. The first being that everyone sees all Jews as the same. The Orthodox don't help in their assertions that a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism has no Jewish soul, and other such dogmas.

 

[Levite]

when you ,a genocidal tribe of warlords,declare yourself the chosen people of the God of the universe,expect some criticism

Do you think that you could possibly universalize and oversimplify everything just a little bit more? While you're at it, why not accuse us of owning all the media and scheming to get all the money?

I have said it several times now, and it still bears repeating: you have no qualification to criticize something that you clearly know nothing whatsoever about. You might try reading my posts above on how chosenness doesn't mean what you've just tried to say it means, for starters.

There really has to come a point at which willful ignorance becomes equivalent to mere bigotry.

The Orthodox don't help in their assertions that a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism has no Jewish soul, and other such dogmas.

Not that I'm the world's biggest fan of Orthodoxy, as you know, but in all fairness, the doctrine that you're citing here is hardly embraced by all Orthodox. No Modern Orthodox person I have ever encountered believed it, and most centrist Orthodox folks that I know would absolutely reject such a doctrine. I even know some Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) who would reject it. Sure, I've encountered plenty of Haredim who wouldn't, too, but that still puts the doctrine in question squarely in the category of wide-eyed radical, and not all Orthodox are radical fundamentalists.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Just a question of interest Levite- How do we know that any one of the numerous Gentile nations claiming to also be God's chosen in the ancient world were not actually God's chosen and not Jews?

 

[Caladan]

Do you think that you could possibly universalize and oversimplify everything just a little bit more? While you're at it, why not accuse us of owning all the media and scheming to get all the money?

I have said it several times now, and it still bears repeating: you have no qualification to criticize something that you clearly know nothing whatsoever about. You might try reading my posts above on how chosenness doesn't mean what you've just tried to say it means, for starters.

There really has to come a point at which willful ignorance becomes equivalent to mere bigotry.



Not that I'm the world's biggest fan of Orthodoxy, as you know, but in all fairness, the doctrine that you're citing here is hardly embraced by all Orthodox. No Modern Orthodox person I have ever encountered believed it, and most centrist Orthodox folks that I know would absolutely reject such a doctrine. I even know some Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) who would reject it. Sure, I've encountered plenty of Haredim who wouldn't, too, but that still puts the doctrine in question squarely in the category of wide-eyed radical, and not all Orthodox are radical fundamentalists.

Pearls, Rebbe.. Pearls...
Save some for later.

 

[arizol]

when you ,a genocidal tribe of warlords,declare yourself the chosen people of the God of the universe,expect some criticism

criticism? like what? 6 million deaths? who gave you the right to kill people because they think they are better? I can think of my self that im the best but it does not give you the right to kill me for it, every time I hear such remarks they drive me crazy because your brain lacks logic behind it.

What is the being chosen theory has anything to do with antisemitism? nothing, it is just an excuse for hate, every nation in the world think they are great and no body hates them for it, Americans claim we are the greatest and richest nation in the world, Russians claim we are the strongest, French and the Brits claim the same, it is important for each nation, goals mixed with patriotism bring people together it helps building a nation so why do you have the right to kill Jews for it and not others? because it is in fact antisemitism so take your stupid excuses and go somewhere else.

Yes we are chosen, in every single place where you can find people are advancing this world to a better tomorrow you will find Jews at the front lines, science, medicine, laws and so on every single field you will find that Jews are advancing so more chances we are chosen.