IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, these words are for emotional impact. The actual issue is abortion. You are anti-abortion or pro-abortion or something more nuanced (like Roe v. Wade is).
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System 666 Set-up
- Thread starter InChrist
- Start date
angellous_evangellous
Christian
There you go.
InChrist
Free4ever
I should have entitled the thread ,
Antichrist System Set-up instead because that is the primary subject, not the number.
I have mentioned it several times on other threads where you promote 666
It means 616 is more correct, more original than 666
The system is number representation, if that number is wrong then the representation is wrong
angellous_evangellous
Christian
I don't know exactly what you mean, but I think that I disagree. I mean, the numbers are different but they both refer to the same thing.
Actually I stated the opposite. What I said was that people chose to have sex, which means they may get pregnant (even if using contraception). I stated that rape was the EXCEPTION to this (meaning that a woman didn't choose to be raped.) Glad to clear this up!
What you said, and i quote is
I.e rape is the exception to choice. ie. not a choice, as I said
The numbers are equal to a letter in grematria, used as code.
angellous_evangellous
Christian
Oh, I don't know about any of that. Obviously the numbers would change the meaning in that case. I'm more concerned with the original meaning than anything people make up today.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes. Although lets face it. Most people are not in the black/white domain about this. Including me. Most Americans believe that abortion for convenience sake is wrong (although perhaps not murder). But they may believe there are reasons one can morally have an abortion. There is also the sliding scale of time. Virtually no one cares about the morning after pill, but most are appalled at the idea of an abortion in the ninth month (where they may actually consider it murder in most cases). Unfortunately, the abortion debate doesn't make room for all of these people -- it falsely presents it as having only two sides.
I mostly agree with you but would change the "Most Americans believe" to "Many Americans believe"
I think, if it were most then the law in America would be changed
dad
Undefeated
"P 115 is a 3-4th century copy of the book of Revelation that was discovered at Oxyrhynchus in Egypt – the source of very many papyrus finds of all sorts, secular mainly, but occasionally, as in this case, biblical. P 115 consists of a number of fragments / scraps (several dozen), which, taken altogether, contain somewhat more than 1% of the book. As I say, these are fragments, and as such leave much to be deciphered in studying them. For this particular fragment mentioned by the individual you cite, it is true that we have the Greek short-hand for the number 616. But there are a number of factors to consider before jumping to the conclusion that such is the "proper" number of the beast:
1) This papyrus is later than the best copy we have of the book of Revelation, namely, codex Sinaiticus (aka "Aleph"); that complete copy of Revelation reads "six-hundred and sixty-six", and spells out the number fully rather than using Greek numerical short-hand (a method which is often problematic as all scholars are aware). Sinaiticus dates to the late second or early third century, so is about a century earlier than the papyrus, even should we wish to accept the early dating for the papyrus which Greenfell and Hunt give it.
2) Since the papyrus uses Greek numerical short-hand (i.e., the letters/symbols 'chi-iota-stigma' as opposed to 'chi-xi-stigma'), there is a much greater chance that it is the papyrus that is error rather than the manuscript. That is because the Greek numeral notation system was far more problematic than our Arabic numerals (for reasons that would be too time-consuming to go into here). Suffice it to say that numbers are always viewed with some suspicion in all of Greek textual criticism for precisely this reason, namely, the short-hand use of a system that was easily mistaken or altered in transcription. It is true that one ms., "C" (Ephraemi rescriptus), also has this reading, but this only shows that the papyrus, a cheaper sort of text, was probably derived from "C" or a related patrimony.
3) There are good theological reasons for preferring the traditional reading. In a nutshell, six-hundred and sixty-six falls just short of a perfect "seven" in a repeating cipher, and is therefore an apt identifier for the beast who will seem so close to being the Messiah that he will be able to fool all but the elect. On the other hand, 616 means nothing.
4) What has been missed by all commentators, as far as I know, is the fact that the Greek word for "six-hundred" in Aleph, the only one of the three words in the compound numeral which declines, is actually in the feminine gender (most texts incorrectly print the masculine). This is a striking development which would catch the eye of anyone reading the whole number for himself (since it begs the question of what the number then agrees with grammatically), and would make the chance that there had been an error very unlikely in any manuscript which preserves this reading (as Aleph does). On the other hand, this piece of information is entirely lost when the short-hand method is used. What that means is that any ms. tradition going to the short-hand from the fuller version necessarily changes the text by losing a key piece of information (even if the otherwise correct 666 is retained). For the meaning of this feminine ending and also for the theological significance of the numeral related thereto please see the link: "The Number of the Beast" in CT 4.
5) Finally, there are other problems with the text of the papyrus. In this fragment the letter which should precede the numeral (i.e., an upsilon from the word for "of him / his [name]") is not in fact what we find. Instead we find an eta, and this cannot even be easily explained by the other words in the context. What it could be, however, is the Greek word for "or", so that what we very well might have here is the papyrus retaining an alternative reading:
"[his number is 666] or 616 [depending]"
The fact that the 616 follows the "or" makes it clear that whoever copied the book felt this alternative to be the less likely reading."
Antichrist: the Mark, the Number, and the Identification of the Beast
A lot of opinion and apologetics means little without valid confirmation (i.e.using the scientific method) do you have such validating evidence
And of course the codex Sinaiticus was compiled in the 4 century, which despite the apologetics always comes after 3rd century when i went to school
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
A half-dozen?
dad
Undefeated
"
666
Irenaeus is the first of the church fathers to consider the mystic number 666. While Irenaeus did propose some solutions of this numerical riddle, his interpretation was quite reserved. Thus, he cautiously states:
"But knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, have a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation."[104][105]
Although Irenaeus did speculate upon three names to symbolize this mystical number, namely Euanthas, Teitan, and Lateinos, nevertheless he was content to believe that the Antichrist would arise some time in the future after the fall of Rome and then the meaning of the number would be revealed.[106][107]"
Irenaeus - Wikipedia
It seems this pre dates your offering. I would tend to agree with this guy. (as do most translations of Scripture today). I can wait and see what number the AntiChrist best fits, if not both.
I am also skeptical of opinions expressed by those who hate Scripture. Whatever they choose to latch onto is usually self serving, divisive, and not meant to truly seek truth, but to fight God and His word. I actually find this a great indication of what NOT to believe.
dad
Undefeated
I say I will be able to see the guy whose fingerprints were given to us in advance and you say 'don't they all'? No. No one else and no other time in history will fit what the bible predicts about the final ruler and time.
That is the hope of all ages, and what Jesus rose from the dead to demonstrate is true.