Suffer, You Little *&*^$%s

[GoodbyeDave]

It isn't a matter of how much, but at all. And I do note that you're shying away from all the suffering god has let go on in the world---no surprise though..

Well of course they are, as there's no answer.

Really this thread is a bit redundant. You describe a crucial problem with the Abrahamic religions which everyone who doesn't practice them can see a mile off. Then those who do practice them then turn up and make desparate attempts at salvage. This has been going on for a couple of thousand years and is not likely to stop, unless we all succumb to terminal boredom.

 

[Skwim]

And I don’t think the theological point the creation myth is making is that “A&E screwed up.” Richard Lowery, noted OT scholar, says, “The price of human wisdom is the irresistible urge to produce and reproduce life, a desire that inevitably meets with failure, struggle, pain,, and death.”

This doesn't make one wit of sense.

When the serpent tempted Eve, all literary indicators point to the serpent being a representation of wisdom — not Satan, as many would have us believe. Adam and Eve “grew up,” and gained wisdom, making them “like God.”

Nor does this, but in any case it's irrelevant.

Lowery goes on: “Humans trade paradise for wisdom and, in the process, cause the universal desert to bloom. They forfeit blissful innocence for the godly power of moral discernment ... the world prospers as a result. The ‘fall’ in this story is the paonful process of growing up, maturing into moral beings, becoming fully human and thus ‘like God.’”

So your point here is that this justifies god letting us suffer? That mere babies and children should suffer and die of diphtheria, polio, tetanus, tuberculosis, measles, whooping cough, and hunger? Thing is, humans didn't trade anything. Suffering is thrust upon us.

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[Skwim]

Well of course they are, as there's no answer.

Really this thread is a bit redundant. You describe a crucial problem with the Abrahamic religions which everyone who doesn't practice them can see a mile off. Then those who do practice them then turn up and make desparate attempts at salvage. This has been going on for a couple of thousand years and is not likely to stop, unless we all succumb to terminal boredom.

Then I invite you to post a thread we can become engaged in and debate. That is why you're here in the debate forums isn't it?

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[Cooky]

Just going by what your Bible and millions of Christians say. .

Either way, man distanced himself.

God cannot be close to evil? Hell, he's the one who creates it.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.​

How much closer can one get?

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I think the old testament has a lot of wisdom. Also, a lot of assumptions, and misunderstood attempts.

Surely you don't think the Catholics are Fundamentalists.

 

[Skwim]

Either way, man distanced himself.
I think the old testament has a lot of wisdom. Also, a lot of assumptions, and misunderstood attempts.
Surely you don't think the Catholics are Fundamentalists.

So what does the good Catholic do with Isaiah 45:7. simply ignore it?

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[Cooky]

So what does the good Catholic do with Isaiah 45:7. simply ignore it?
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We ignore a lot of the Old Testament, like Saturday being the Lords Day. There are entire denominations created just out our lack of care for what the Old Testament says (SDA Seventh Day Adventists).

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Are you implying that in the very beginning god intended that A&E and all their progeny were to live on earth forever?

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Yes. Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 115:16 and Isaiah 11:6-9 (vs.9) are just three of many that tell us that.

We were to "fill the Earth" (Genesis 1:28). Not overfill. And God could form more land....Hawaii has already grown bigger. Do you think Jehovah could teach us how to advance our technology, where we could even live in domed cities under the oceans? Who knows the possibilities!

With Jehovah's guidance, we could even build ships to reach other planets, and terraform!

Personally, now all this is speculation, I think the planets that scientists have discovered, are for us to eventually colonize.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It isn't a matter of how much, but at all. And I do note that you're shying away from all the suffering god has let go on in the world---no surprise though.

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I'm not "shying away", but I don't know if my words will have any effect. I'll try....

Genesis 3:1-6 tells us, among other things, Jehovah's sovereignty was challenged. When A&E chose to disobey, they gave that challenge validity, basically telling God "we don't need your rulership, God." And all the Angels were watching this.

So Jehovah has stayed out of human affairs, letting the issue settle itself; but protecting those who willingly accept Him. And protecting the "seed" (Genesis 3:15), which was Jesus, and the lineage to him.

But nothing else. Hes removed His control from over the planet, too. So there are Earth's forces -- earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. -- "running out of control" sometimes. So Jehovah doesn't help men (unless they turn to Him); if He stepped in every time men were hurting themselves, He would be defeating His side of the issue, simply prolonging the inevitable outcome: that humans need Jehovah's rule.

Jehovah knows the predicament we're in -- our imperfection included -- wasnt our fault.... That's why He has provided a way out for us, through Jesus' sacrifice. Through His Son, we will have an opportunity -- all humans; even those dead, who will receive a resurrection -- to live under His rulership, on a paradise Earth. Matthew 6:9-10; John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:3-4.

But yeah, we suffer...some a lot! But we only suffer 70-90 years. And if some suffer "a lot", it's fewer years, or only weeks or days.

But once they die, they're out of their suffering, RIP'ing until the Resurrection!

 

[sealchan]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would suffer. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposing making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

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I agree that this is how the story can come off if you read it from the literalist point of view. I don't recommend doing that, however.

Rather, think about what life is actually like and whether, or not, this story makes sense from that point of view...even if that still does not make God look good and even if you don't believe in a god. If you go, "Ah, yes that does seem to show insight into the nature of human experience," then I think you have seen what the author(s) originate intent was. If not them perhaps a little further context is in order. Again, this is not to make God look good, but rather to appreciate the wisdom in the story. We can worry (or not) about God's character later.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

At the end, life is just a game, if you work hard you will enjoy it, if you abuse things, there will be consequences and there are limits and rules. This world is perfect for it. However, we cannot use cheats or hacks in this game. If god would come help us it would be cheating. I do not know where we come from and no one knows, we can be a science experiment of some intelligent alien species, we could have just been created purely out of nothing, just pure luck and we adapted to the life over the millions of years that the universe has existed, we could have been created by the creator of life who we do not know who he is, we could have been created from something else that our brain is not capable of thinking about. My point is we do not know who created us, so we do not know what his intentions of creating us (Life) were.

 

[sojourner]

This doesn't make one wit of sense

I’m not surprised; you’re not versed in theological thinking.

So your point here is that this justifies god letting us suffer?

No. I think the account is etiological. It offers an explanation of why we suffer, but does not serve to justify it in any way, in my mind.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The Gospel according to Skwim..... such an imagination.

Indeed. On par with the wild imaginations of the original authors, isn't he?

No... wait... Skwim is far more rational. Must be that 21st century hindsight.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The garden of Eden may not have been on planet earth. How is that relevant? Well, they say that the depths of hell is a place where God is completely absent, no pleasure, no goodness et all- So it seems to me that if God frequented the "garden", then that means it was closer to God than earth, since He doesn't come here.

...Basically what I'm saying is that God cannot be close to evil, and once they sinned, and became tainted with evil knowledge, God had to push them further away. When they were distanced, they lost some of His graces.

So. You have proved your god is NOT all-knowing, and does NOT exist everywhere.

And? NOT all powerful!

Not all powerful because it cannot be near evil (even though it created it...)

Not existing everywhere, because it cannot be in hell.

And not all knowing, because not being in hell, it cannot know what happens in there.

Ooops!

 

[sojourner]

I don’t agree that Adam and Eve became like God. After all, it was the Father of Lies who told them that, not someone honest.

No it wasn’t. Read it again. Satan does not appear in the creation myths. The humans did become godlike, in that they gained the ability to make moral judgments.

 

[sojourner]

Yes. Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 115:16 and Isaiah 11:6-9 (vs.9) are just three of many that tell us that.

We were to "fill the Earth" (Genesis 1:28). Not overfill. And God could form more land....Hawaii has already grown bigger. Do you think Jehovah could teach us how to advance our technology, where we could even live in domed cities under the oceans? Who knows the possibilities!

With Jehovah's guidance, we could even build ships to reach other planets, and terraform!

Personally, now all this is speculation, I think the planets that scientists have discovered, are for us to eventually colonize.

This is the kind of nonsense we get when we try to read ancient literature through a modern lens. Holy crap!

 

[sojourner]

I'm not "shying away", but I don't know if my words will have any effect. I'll try....

Genesis 3:1-6 tells us, among other things, Jehovah's sovereignty was challenged. When A&E chose to disobey, they gave that challenge validity, basically telling God "we don't need your rulership, God." And all the Angels were watching this.

So Jehovah has stayed out of human affairs, letting the issue settle itself; but protecting those who willingly accept Him. And protecting the "seed" (Genesis 3:15), which was Jesus, and the lineage to him.

But nothing else. Hes removed His control from over the planet, too. So there are Earth's forces -- earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. -- "running out of control" sometimes. So Jehovah doesn't help men (unless they turn to Him); if He stepped in every time men were hurting themselves, He would be defeating His side of the issue, simply prolonging the inevitable outcome: that humans need Jehovah's rule.

Jehovah knows the predicament we're in -- our imperfection included -- wasnt our fault.... That's why He has provided a way out for us, through Jesus' sacrifice. Through His Son, we will have an opportunity -- all humans; even those dead, who will receive a resurrection -- to live under His rulership, on a paradise Earth. Matthew 6:9-10; John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:3-4.

But yeah, we suffer...some a lot! But we only suffer 70-90 years. And if some suffer "a lot", it's fewer years, or only weeks or days.

But once they die, they're out of their suffering, RIP'ing until the Resurrection!

This is almost completely revisionist.

 

[Skwim]

We ignore a lot of the Old Testament, like Saturday being the Lords Day. There are entire denominations created just out our lack of care for what the Old Testament says (SDA Seventh Day Adventists).

Yeah, the Bible almost screams, "Cherry pick me," doesn't it.

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[Cooky]

So. You have proved your god is NOT all-knowing, and does NOT exist everywhere.

And? NOT all powerful!

Not all powerful because it cannot be near evil (even though it created it...)

Not existing everywhere, because it cannot be in hell.

And not all knowing, because not being in hell, it cannot know what happens in there.

Ooops!

True. I think God's absence from the deepest pits of hell does indicate that He does not know what happens there. In fact, He forgets those there forever.

...But there are even levels in hell. Hades, for example, was the place in upper hell where good souls waited prior to salvation. God's essence was slightly present there.

 

[Cooky]

Yeah, the Bible almost screams, "Cherry pick me," doesn't it.

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Well, the bible is the book that the infallible Church authored. The real source is the author IMO, and Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and He promised his Holy Spirit would remain with it*.

It's the Protestants who insist that the Holy Spirit exists exclusively in the bible, but only after they departed. That's why they are drawn to fundamentalism.

 

[Skwim]

I'm not "shying away", but I don't know if my words will have any effect. I'll try....

Genesis 3:1-6 tells us, among other things, Jehovah's sovereignty was challenged. When A&E chose to disobey, they gave that challenge validity, basically telling God "we don't need your rulership, God." And all the Angels were watching this.

Don't buy it.

So Jehovah has stayed out of human affairs, letting the issue settle itself; but protecting those who willingly accept Him. And protecting the "seed" (Genesis 3:15), which was Jesus, and the lineage to him.

Has he now.

2 Chronicles 20:29
And the fear of God was on all the kingdoms of those countries, when they had heard that the LORD fought against the enemies of Israel.

Joel 2:18
Then the LORD will be zealous for His land And will have pity on His people.
​

But nothing else. Hes removed His control from over the planet, too. So there are Earth's forces -- earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. -- "running out of control" sometimes. So Jehovah doesn't help men (unless they turn to Him); if He stepped in every time men were hurting themselves, He would be defeating His side of the issue, simply prolonging the inevitable outcome: that humans need Jehovah's rule.

Ever hear of Bystander Responsibility, also called the Duty to Rescue?

"A duty to rescue is a concept in tort law that arises in a number of cases, describing a circumstance in which a party can be held liable for failing to come to the rescue of another party in who could face potential injury or death without being rescued.
source: Wikipedia
​

God is guilty of failing to rescue, and is also guilty of creating the need for rescue. Heck, even we mere mortals have laws against making animals suffer. Yet you imply the suffering we all undergo is okey-dokey because god is its source.

Jehovah knows the predicament we're in -- our imperfection included -- wasnt our fault.... That's why He has provided a way out for us, through Jesus' sacrifice. Through His Son, we will have an opportunity -- all humans; even those dead, who will receive a resurrection -- to live under His rulership, on a paradise Earth. Matthew 6:9-10; John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:3-4.

Not talking about some possible later reward if one jumps through all his hoops, but the unnecessary suffering he has saddled us all with.

But yeah, we suffer...some a lot! But we only suffer 70-90 years. And if some suffer "a lot", it's fewer years, or only weeks or days.

Gee, sorry I smashed into your car and you'll now have to spend the rest of your life in a hospital bed, but what the heck, in 40 to 60 years you'll no doubt be dead and your suffering will be over. So no big deal.

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