Suffer, You Little *&*^$%s

[Skwim]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would suffer. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposely making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street.

At least, not if the Desert Eagle is closer. I mean, I just stubbed my toe...I'm not travelling further than I need to for sweet, sweet retribution.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That god. Such a kidder.

Once everyone gets to heaven? He'll smile and say, "gotcha! It was all just a big JOKE!"

 

[Thief]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would experience suffering. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now we has made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposing making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

.

as you probably know....I've been posting for several years....

and I repeat....repeatedly....

the garden event was a manipulation of body and mind
a redirect of the course of Man

the forbidden fruit routine was a test....and Adam and Eve did not fail

there had always been pain and suffering
the first couple were not the first to walk this earth
just the first to walk with God

the experiment was a success and the specimens released into the environment

back to the pain of this world

 

[Skwim]

as you probably know....I've been posting for several years....

and I repeat....repeatedly....

the garden event was a manipulation of body and mind
a redirect of the course of Man

the forbidden fruit routine was a test....and Adam and Eve did not fail

there had always been pain and suffering
the first couple were not the first to walk this earth
just the first to walk with God

the experiment was a success and the specimens released into the environment

back to the pain of this world

That's interesting, but I think I'll stick with the Biblical version.

.
.

 

[Deeje]

And here we go again.....

And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

You do know about false premises now don't you....or maybe not....you're still laboring under chronically entrenched misapprehensions. God never had any intention to take anyone to heaven at the beginning...why would he? He has enough angels there already.

He also told the humans to "fill the earth", not "overfill" it. So once the human race had fulfilled the mandate, what do you suppose God was going to do? One of two things perhaps....either stop procreation or make other world's inhabitable and send the excess humans to a new home....who knows? We haven't got that far yet. But I am sure he has it all under control.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would experience suffering. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

And you are so sure that this is all God's doing? God can make "MAJOR blunders" in your estimations? It couldn't be that you are just short on information or understanding of the issues raised in Eden?

What was challenged when the devil tempted the woman and she fell for the spin he put on the prohibition? Who had the right to set the limits of man's existence more than the Creator did? It wasn't God's power that was challenged....it was his Sovereignty.....his right to tell humans what to do, when he had given them free will. Having fallen for the devil's lies, their will now clashed with God's. What was the only way to prove that humans could not direct their lives successfully without His guidance?.....Let them have the total freedom that they wanted. This way a record could be kept of their dismal failures, and be used as precedents for all time to come if any human or angel wanted to challenge God's sovereignty again in the future. Handing over the rulership of the human race to the god they chose and obeyed, was the most intelligent thing God could have done because the end completely justifies the means. Not only will God eliminate all human suffering as a result of Adam's sin and restore his original arrangement....but he will even erase the memory of any pain or tragedy. (Isaiah 65:17) How could the outcome be better than that? He can now guarantee that no rebel will ever spoil his future plans. That is an awesome bit of insurance, given freely to us.....paid for by the priceless sacrifice of the Christ.

What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now we has made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

Oh dear, poor mankind . Is this always about poor humans who largely bring most of their suffering on themselves? Seriously when God brings in his new world kingdom, I assure you that there will not be a section for whiners and complainers. The example of the Israelites in the wilderness proved that. (1 Corinthians 10:10-11)
After their release from slavery, the Israelites were discontented with their lot in life and expressed this by murmuring or complaining. For example, just a few weeks after their deliverance from slavery in Egypt, “the entire assembly of the sons of Israel began to murmur against Moses and Aaron.” They complained about their food, saying: “If only we had died by Jehovah’s hand in the land of Egypt while we were sitting by the pots of meat, while we were eating bread to satisfaction, because you have brought us out into this wilderness to put this whole congregation to death by famine.” (Exodus 16:1-3)

But in actual fact Jehovah sustained the Israelites with what they needed in the wilderness, he provided them with a perfect food and fresh water...even their clothing and sandals did not wear out. There was never a threat that the people of Israel would die of famine in the wilderness. In a spirit of discontent, though, they exaggerated their plight and began to complain. Moses told the Israelites: “Jehovah has heard your murmurings that you are murmuring against him. And what are we? Your murmurings are not against us, but against Jehovah.” (Exodus 16:4-8)

Isn't this what we see here...again? Another thread to complain about God? Serial complainers get a bit wearisome after a while.

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

Chelsea who? Never heard of her.

I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposing making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

How does one argue with this mentality? There is a bigger picture outside of your pity party....but I guess you are too busy blubbering to even see it?

 

[Drew Henefer]

as you probably know....I've been posting for several years....

and I repeat....repeatedly....

the garden event was a manipulation of body and mind
a redirect of the course of Man

the forbidden fruit routine was a test....and Adam and Eve did not fail

there had always been pain and suffering
the first couple were not the first to walk this earth
just the first to walk with God

the experiment was a success and the specimens released into the environment

back to the pain of this world

I believe you, because it captures the inhumanity of God.

 

[Kenny]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would suffer. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposing making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

.

The Gospel according to Skwim..... such an imagination.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot).

Sounds real good so far....

And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated

Uh-oh...Houston, do we have a problem?.....

Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

BOOM!! Crash & burn! I knew it! And way off the mark!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it.

Just wondering....how bad are you suffering? You find no enjoyment in life?

 

[Thief]

I believe you, because it captures the inhumanity of God.

and you do understand....?
there is no glory in being human

 

[Cooky]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would suffer. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposing making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

.

The garden of Eden may not have been on planet earth. How is that relevant? Well, they say that the depths of hell is a place where God is completely absent, no pleasure, no goodness et all- So it seems to me that if God frequented the "garden", then that means it was closer to God than earth, since He doesn't come here.

...Basically what I'm saying is that God cannot be close to evil, and once they sinned, and became tainted with evil knowledge, God had to push them further away. When they were distanced, they lost some of His graces.

 

[Cooky]

...It's not a punishment. It's just divine physics.

 

[sojourner]

And here we go again.....



You do know about false premises now don't you....or maybe not....you're still laboring under chronically entrenched misapprehensions. God never had any intention to take anyone to heaven at the beginning...why would he? He has enough angels there already.

He also told the humans to "fill the earth", not "overfill" it. So once the human race had fulfilled the mandate, what do you suppose God was going to do? One of two things perhaps....either stop procreation or make other world's inhabitable and send the excess humans to a new home....who knows? We haven't got that far yet. But I am sure he has it all under control.



And you are so sure that this is all God's doing? God can make "MAJOR blunders" in your estimations? It couldn't be that you are just short on information or understanding of the issues raised in Eden?

What was challenged when the devil tempted the woman and she fell for the spin he put on the prohibition? Who had the right to set the limits of man's existence more than the Creator did? It wasn't God's power that was challenged....it was his Sovereignty.....his right to tell humans what to do, when he had given them free will. Having fallen for the devil's lies, their will now clashed with God's. What was the only way to prove that humans could not direct their lives successfully without His guidance?.....Let them have the total freedom that they wanted. This way a record could be kept of their dismal failures, and be used as precedents for all time to come if any human or angel wanted to challenge God's sovereignty again in the future. Handing over the rulership of the human race to the god they chose and obeyed, was the most intelligent thing God could have done because the end completely justifies the means. Not only will God eliminate all human suffering as a result of Adam's sin and restore his original arrangement....but he will even erase the memory of any pain or tragedy. (Isaiah 65:17) How could the outcome be better than that? He can now guarantee that no rebel will ever spoil his future plans. That is an awesome bit of insurance, given freely to us.....paid for by the priceless sacrifice of the Christ.



Oh dear, poor mankind . Is this always about poor humans who largely bring most of their suffering on themselves? Seriously when God brings in his new world kingdom, I assure you that there will not be a section for whiners and complainers. The example of the Israelites in the wilderness proved that. (1 Corinthians 10:10-11)
After their release from slavery, the Israelites were discontented with their lot in life and expressed this by murmuring or complaining. For example, just a few weeks after their deliverance from slavery in Egypt, “the entire assembly of the sons of Israel began to murmur against Moses and Aaron.” They complained about their food, saying: “If only we had died by Jehovah’s hand in the land of Egypt while we were sitting by the pots of meat, while we were eating bread to satisfaction, because you have brought us out into this wilderness to put this whole congregation to death by famine.” (Exodus 16:1-3)

But in actual fact Jehovah sustained the Israelites with what they needed in the wilderness, he provided them with a perfect food and fresh water...even their clothing and sandals did not wear out. There was never a threat that the people of Israel would die of famine in the wilderness. In a spirit of discontent, though, they exaggerated their plight and began to complain. Moses told the Israelites: “Jehovah has heard your murmurings that you are murmuring against him. And what are we? Your murmurings are not against us, but against Jehovah.” (Exodus 16:4-8)

Isn't this what we see here...again? Another thread to complain about God? Serial complainers get a bit wearisome after a while.



Chelsea who? Never heard of her.



How does one argue with this mentality? There is a bigger picture outside of your pity party....but I guess you are too busy blubbering to even see it?

Aaaaand, once again, JW “theology” misses the mark. Except for the part where you assert that the OP has given us a false premise.

 

[sojourner]

In the very beginning when god created Adam & Eve he had big plans for them. He planted them in the garden of Eden where everything was idyllic: there was plenty to eat, (fruit and vegetables seemed to be the repas du jour, every day) nothing to fear (wolves played with the bunnies) nothing to be ashamed of (nudity was thee last word in fashion), and there was no hate, jealousy, or animosity (nobody was boinking anyone on the head and stealing their last carrot). And because they were born with reproductive organs I think it's fair to assume they were meant to reproduce, which meant that given enough time, if they and their progeny never died the world would eventually become over populated. Therefore, god intended that they would die, at which time he would take them into heaven with him.

Nice plan.

However, as we all know, right off the bat Eve screwed up the whole darn thing. We all know what happened so won't bother going into it, but I would like to point out one consequence. Because of this MAJOR blunder god decided that all almost all of his sentient creations would suffer. Bunnies, who once lived in peace with wolves, now had to fear them and suffer the likelihood of being eaten alive. Carrots and all other plants could well suffer a lack of rain and die of thirst. And mankind would suffer under the anger and vitriol of their "neighbors." Even personal suffering was inflicted on us; sadness, aching backs, and tummy aches. To say nothing of ALS, cancer, and heart attacks.

Nope, god made sure we'd all suffer, and suffer mightily for Eve's screw up.

Now, normally we confront the good and bad in our lives with proportionality. When we receive a nice bonus in our paycheck we don't blow our life's savings in celebration. Nor when stubbing our toe on the bathroom sink do we grab our Remington 597 Kryptek Semi Auto Rimfire rifle and start shooting out the tires on all the cars parked along our street. What we do is respond rationally and proportionally. After getting the bonus the wife and I might go out for dinner, and after stubbing my toe at most I'd hop around on the other foot while swearing for a minute or so. What I wouldn't do is visit my misfortune on anyone else. That would be just stupid, to say nothing of unjust and cruel.

Yet this is exactly what god has done. A&E messed up and now he's made us all suffer for it. Some say our suffering is necessary to gain salvation. Could be. Considering what misery god has already dumped on mankind I can honestly see him adding to our suffering by making us jump through hoops for his glory.

In her pandering apologetic, Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says:

"Suffering is inevitable.

For Christians enduring this fallen world, suffering has two purposes: God’s glory and our good."​

Looking up "glory" just to be sure I got it right, (it means "high renown or honor won by notable achievements") our suffering appears to increase or pay homage to god's already high renown or honor, but I ask you, to what purpose? Is god so vain that he needs more high renown or honor heaped upon him, and just how does our suffering do this? I suffer, which in turn adds to his renown or heaps more honor upon him? Truthfully I don't get the process at all; and where's this good we evidently receive from suffering?

Chelsea Patterson Sobolik says our suffering "sanctifies and purifies us."
source

Whaaat? "Sanctify" means "free from sin; purify / set apart as or declare holy; consecrate. / make legitimate or binding by religious sanction." Okay, but must this go on day after day, year after year? How about an "Option Out Clause"? And why would suffering do this instead of some act we choose to do? After all, don't those things we choose to do acquire more acknowledgment than those that just happen? As for suffering purifying us, I have just about the same questions as I do for sanctifying us.

So, I find it very difficult to pull any good from our suffering. BESIDES, none of this would have been necessary---god needing glory and all---if A&E had never screwed up. For the last 6,000 years or so god would have been sitting back in his Barcalounger watching everyone gambol about with the deer in all their nakedness, occasionally stopping to pull up a carrot or two before resuming their play time or mating. But-*sigh*- god became very vindictive and needy after the Eden event (personally, it doesn't speak well of his mentally stablity), purposing making us all his whipping boys. And in all our suffering, like the masochist, Christians are saying, "Thank you master. More please." So please forgive me for not understanding the whole thing. It just doesn't make sense.

What I do understand though, is that for god, "proportionality" is a dirty word.

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I don’t think Sobolik begins to adequately address the issue of theodicy. I don’t think anyone ever has — or ever will. I think suffering can make us stronger, but, many times, it just kills us.

And I don’t think the theological point the creation myth is making is that “A&E screwed up.” Richard Lowery, noted OT scholar, says, “The price of human wisdom is the irresistible urge to produce and reproduce life, a desire that inevitably meets with failure, struggle, pain,, and death.” When the serpent tempted Eve, all literary indicators point to the serpent being a representation of wisdom — not Satan, as many would have us believe. Adam and Eve “grew up,” and gained wisdom, making them “like God.”

Lowery goes on: “Humans trade paradise for wisdom and, in the process, cause the universal desert to bloom. They forfeit blissful innocence for the godly power of moral discernment ... the world prospers as a result. The ‘fall’ in this story is the paonful process of growing up, maturing into moral beings, becoming fully human and thus ‘like God.’”

 

[Drew Henefer]

and you do understand....?
there is no glory in being human

Greater than the whole, not greater than the whole.

 

[Cooky]

I don’t think Sobolik begins to adequately address the issue of theodicy. I don’t think anyone ever has — or ever will. I think suffering can make us stronger, but, many times, it just kills us.

And I don’t think the theological point the creation myth is making is that “A&E screwed up.” Richard Lowery, noted OT scholar, says, “The price of human wisdom is the irresistible urge to produce and reproduce life, a desire that inevitably meets with failure, struggle, pain,, and death.” When the serpent tempted Eve, all literary indicators point to the serpent being a representation of wisdom — not Satan, as many would have us believe. Adam and Eve “grew up,” and gained wisdom, making them “like God.”

Lowery goes on: “Humans trade paradise for wisdom and, in the process, cause the universal desert to bloom. They forfeit blissful innocence for the godly power of moral discernment ... the world prospers as a result. The ‘fall’ in this story is the paonful process of growing up, maturing into moral beings, becoming fully human and thus ‘like God.’”

I don’t agree that Adam and Eve became like God. After all, it was the Father of Lies who told them that, not someone honest.

 

[Skwim]

BOOM!! Crash & burn! I knew it! And way off the mark!

Are you implying that in the very beginning god intended that A&E and all their progeny were to live on earth forever?

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[Skwim]

Just wondering....how bad are you suffering? You find no enjoyment in life?

It isn't a matter of how much, but at all. And I do note that you're shying away from all the suffering god has let go on in the world---no surprise though.

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[Skwim]

The garden of Eden may not have been on planet earth. How is that relevant? Well, they say that the depths of hell is a place where God is completely absent, no pleasure, no goodness et all- So it seems to me that if God frequented the "garden", then that means it was closer to God than earth, since He doesn't come here.

Just going by what your Bible and millions of Christians say.

...Basically what I'm saying is that God cannot be close to evil, and once they sinned, and became tainted with evil knowledge, God had to push them further away. When they were distanced, they lost some of His graces.

God cannot be close to evil? Hell, he's the one who creates it.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.​

How much closer can one get?

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