Stuff Democrats Say

[Alceste]

I think the expression "fog of controversy" indicates that controversy can make the real details of an issue difficult to see. But, I think that was a disinenguouis representation on her part. I do not think that the controversy was isolated to disagreement about the effectiveness, wisdom, legality etc. over the bill (although there was definitely that.) Very few people (including the people voting for it) had an understanding of the full impact and details of the legislation, since it was so large and was being pushed through so quickly.

I think our legislators owe it to their constituents to vote "no" if they are not given sufficient time to read and understand the legislation they are voting on. I don't think that is too much to ask. There should be understanding and clarity on the meaning of the legislation -- before a vote.

Not having been given time to read something is not the same as "fog of controversy" as to its impact and effectiveness. I think she was calling "fog of controversy" something that (IMO) was objection to obvious legislative deception. I believe that material withholding/concealing of information in this case was done to intentionally deceive the American public about something that they would not have supported or tolerated, if the matter was fully discussed in the open.

OK. I understand your point of view, and I agree that legislators must have adequate time to read and reflect on the implications of a bill before passing it into law. On the other hand, I recall reading several incarnations of the bill myself, including the final version, before it was passed, as well as engaging in lengthy debates right here about the implications of the various new policies and initiatives it contained. So I am not completely convinced the process was as hasty and secretive as you say.

Granted, I only "skimmed" large sections of the final version, and I would expect more from legislators. On the other hand, I don't have a huge team of aids, staff and advisers to assist me with the task, and I still felt pretty well-informed.

 

[Revoltingest]

1) I'm not a Biden apologist.
2) You've yet to show a gross misunderstanding.

Biden's figure was orders of magnitude off, bespeaking a fundamental misunderstanding, & hard to dismiss as a minor slip.
To defend his gaffe as an error in "haste" apologetics.

 

[Storm]

Biden's figure was orders of magnitude off, bespeaking fundamental misunderesting, & hard to dismiss as a minor slip.
To defend him is apologetics.

Unless he just accidentally said the wrong word, which does happen. I'd give a Republican the same benefit of the doubt with the same example.

 

[Alceste]

Did he correct himself later?

He corrected himself weeks before, in fact, during the VP debate:

"They're pushing the continuation of a tax cut that will give an additional $500 billion in tax cuts to 120,000 families."

But hey, if all you can find to argue that the Democrats are exactly as crazy and stupid as Republicans is the occasional slip-of-the-tongue, you have to work with what you've got.

 

[Alceste]

Biden's figure was orders of magnitude off, bespeaking a fundamental misunderstanding, & hard to dismiss as a minor slip.
To defend his gaffe as an error in "haste" apologetics.

"They're pushing the continuation of a tax cut that will give an additional $500 billion in tax cuts to 120,000 families."

~ Joe Biden, October 3.

"They've voted to extend tax cuts for the very wealthy, giving a $500 trillion dollar tax-cut to 120,000 families."

~ Joe Biden, October 23.

Looks like he misspoke to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Looks like he misspoke to me.

What's a factor of 1,000 among friends, eh?
Oh, the creative stuff Democrats & their apologists will say!

 

[Storm]

What's a factor of 1,000 among friends, eh?
Oh, the creative stuff Democrats & their apologists will say!

Is it your claim that people never say one word when they mean another?

 

[Alceste]

What's a factor of 1,000 among friends, eh?
Oh, the stuff Democrats & their apologists will say!

Are you claiming it isn't a slip-of-the-lip? That it's his actual opinion? Not sure where you're going with this. Quoting entire paragraphs from Republicans expressing their actual opinions, which are enshrined in the GOP platform and in 80 new state-level laws penned by Republicans, including the VP candidate, is not productive, but quoting sentence fragments where Democrats get a word wrong is?

 

[Revoltingest]

Just today on NPR, they were touting how it's a positive thing that the unemployment rate jumped up from 7.8% in Sept to 7.9% in Oct.
This is just after they chortled over it dropping to 7.8% in Sept...although that looks like a 'cooked' number (failing to include CA numbers).

 

[Alceste]

Just today on NPR, they were touting how it's a positive thing that the unemployment rate jumped up from 7.8% in Sept to 7.9% in Oct.
This is just after they chortled over it dropping to 7.8% in Sept...although that looks like a 'cooked' number (failing to include CA numbers).

That sounds odd. What was their reasoning?

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you claiming it isn't a slip-of-the-lip? That it's his actual opinion? Not sure where you're going with this.

Of course it's a slip. What matters is that he fails to understand the great difference in size between "billion" & "trillion".

Quoting entire paragraphs from Republicans expressing their actual opinions, which are enshrined in the GOP platform and in 80 new state-level laws penned by Republicans, including the VP candidate, is not productive, but quoting sentence fragments where Democrats get a word wrong is?

This somehow is intended to make Bumble'n Biden look credible?
If the man wore a rubber nose & giant shoes to a state dinner, I suppose you'd praise him as an avant garde fahsionista!

 

[Revoltingest]

That sounds odd. What was their reasoning?

More people were looking for work.
Now this is a positive thing!

 

[Storm]

Of course it's a slip. What matters is that he fails to understand the great difference in size between "billion" & "trillion".

You mean, except for the fact that he apparently doesn't? He said one word when he meant another. That's not comprehension failure, that's the verbal equivalent of a typo.

 

[Alceste]

Of course it's a slip. What matters is that he fails to understand the great difference in size between "billion" & "trillion".

This somehow is intended to make Bumble'n Biden look credible?
If the man wore a rubber nose & giant shoes to a state dinner, I suppose you'd praise him as an avant garde fahsionista!

Is that what you really believe? That the vice president of the united states honestly does not know the difference between a billion and a trillion?

 

[Alceste]

More people were looking for work.
Now this is a positive thing!

I can see how that would impact the numbers. In general, the economic news had been great this quarter. Consumer confidence is high and rising, jobs are being added, the deficit is falling, the economy is growing (slowly, but growing). It's not as if there's no reason to believe discouraged workers are reentering the job market, and if that were the case it would have that statistical effect.

Still, not having heard the report, I can't comment on how crazy / stupid it is or isn't.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can see how that would impact the numbers. In general, the economic news had been great this quarter. Consumer confidence is high and rising, jobs are being added, the deficit is falling, the economy is growing (slowly, but growing). It's not as if there's no reason to believe discouraged workers are reentering the job market, and if that were the case it would have that statistical effect.
Still, not having heard the report, I can't comment on how crazy / stupid it is or isn't.

Just think....if rising unemployment is a great things, we should hope that it climbs back up to 10%!
Good old NPR....no matter what change there is in an economic indicator, be it up or down, it
always means that Obama is succeeding. Oh, the stuff those Dems (& we know NPR is full of them)
will say!

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that what you really believe? That the vice president of the united states honestly does not know the difference between a billion and a trillion?

I'm sure that if questioned & provided with ample time to consider his answer, he'd likely get it right.
But the fact that the meaning of big numbers isn't ingrained to the point of great familiarity is most telling.
This looks worse than Obama's "57 states" gaffe.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is it your claim that people never say one word when they mean another?

No.

You mean, except for the fact that he apparently doesn't? He said one word when he meant another. That's not comprehension failure, that's the verbal equivalent of a typo.

This is too quick & glib a dismissal of the significance of his gaffe.
Old Joe makes Palin look scholarly, yet Democratic apologists never
cut her such slack. Such is the blindness of true believers.

 

[Storm]

I'm sure that if questioned & provided with ample time to consider his answer, he'd likely get it right.
But the fact that the meaning of big numbers isn't ingrained to the point of great familiarity is most telling.
This looks worse than Obama's "57 states" gaffe.

Ample time being half a second?

 

[Storm]

This is too quick & glib a dismissal of the significance of his gaffe.
Old Joe makes Palin look scholarly.

Psssssssst, your bias is showing.

There's no significance to dismiss.