St. Louis couple pulls guns on protesters marching to mayor's house

[PureX]

Would I know whether the broken window
is the end or the beginning of the violence?
It would make a difference.

Sure. But none of us is or has ever been clairvoyant. If we were, we could just kill murderers at birth. But we aren't, so we are forced to respond as needed.

If a group threatened to loot & burn your home,
would you threaten any violent action to prevent this?

Do you really believe that killing them over a building is justified? And anything short of that, against an angry mob, isn't going to end well for you. So your choice is to kill, or do nothing.

When it threatens escalation to major loss of property.

Ahhhh! Now it's MAJOR property loss. That's why I asked about two windows being broken, before. Or maybe ten. Exactly how much property loss do you think justifies killing another human being? If a house is really worth a human life or two, then is a really big house worth a bunch of lives?

I suspect that you & I start with different premises,
making any logical argument unconvincing to the other.
You value life more than property.
I value my property more than the life of one who would destroy it.

I understand. But what I am asking for, here, is your logic. I would like to know why you think property is more important to protect than human life. How do you reason this to be so? I understand the love of money. And I understand that as with anything we love, we become impassioned and emotional about it. But the whole point of logic, and the advantage of employing it as a means of reasoning, is to help us not become blinded by all that emotionalism. Is your love of money so intense that you simply cannot escape the emotionalism that comes with it? Or is there some logical reason that has caused you to determine that the material possessions you think you 'own' are so sacrosanct that anyone who dares to corrupt or abuse that sacred right of possession should be put to death, if necessary, to preserve it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure. But none of us is or has ever been clairvoyant. If we were, we could just kill murderers at birth. But we aren't, so we are forced to respond as needed.

I'd use judgement instead of clairvoyance.
It's not perfect, but it's all any of us have.

Do you really believe that killing them over a building is justified?

Yes.
It's the force behind the threat to leave my property alone

And anything short of that, against an angry mob, isn't going to end well for you. So your choice is to kill, or do nothing.

Did I say that?
Let me check....
Nope, I didn't.
In fact, I specifically said to threaten violence in order to prevent it.

Ahhhh! Now it's MAJOR property loss.

It wasn't about that before?

That's why I asked about two windows being broken, before. Or maybe ten. Exactly how much property loss do you think justifies killing another human being? If a house is really worth a human life or two, then is a really big house worth a bunch of lives?

Trying to quantify the number of broken windows that justifies shooting
strikes me as avoiding the issue of using deadly force to prevent loss of
property.....& you may read that to mean significant loss hereafter.

I understand. But what I am asking for, here, is your logic.

This isn't about logic.
It's about values. I value the life of a would be destroyer of my
property less than the value of the property. I'll avoid taking that
life if possible, but not at the expense of the property.

I would like to know why you think property is more important to protect than human life. How do you reason this to be so?

There is no answer more fundamental than the preceding values
I gave. What is your "logic" for placing so little value on my property
that I cannot use deadly force against violent perps bent on mayhem
insist upon it coming to that?

I understand the love of money.

You think it's only about money?
There's also independence, honor, making a living, having something
for retirement, & incentivizing peaceful behavior by those bent on carnage..

And I understand that as with anything we love, we become impassioned and emotional about it. But the whole point of logic, and the advantage of employing it as a means of reasoning, is to help us not become blinded by all that emotionalism. Is your love of money so intense that you simply cannot escape the emotionalism that comes with it? Or is there some logical reason that has caused you to determine that the material possessions you think you 'own' are so sacrosanct that anyone who dares to corrupt or abuse that sacred right of possession should be put to death, if necessary, to preserve it?

You keep talking of "logic" as though you have it, but I don't.
What are your premises?
(There is where we might differ.)
How do you reason from them?

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is what happens when we think property is more important that human lives. These two weren't afraid for their lives, they were afraid for their property. And they were willing to kill anyone who threatened it.

No worse than honey bees when Intruders enter the hive. Just to put it in perspective.

 

[Revoltingest]

No worse than honey bees when Intruders enter the hive. Just to put it in perspective.

Without a culture of defending one's property, violent
perps could do as they please with impunity & no risk.
Criminals should fear immediate consequences.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No worse than honey bees when Intruders enter the hive. Just to put it in perspective.

As a beekeeper, I invade the hive several times a month. Even rob honey on occasion, from their perspective. I don't get stung, even without a suit. They're willing to forgive a lot because the alternative is a lot of bees dying in needlessly escalated violence. No point losing thousands of bees over a pint of honey.

How's that for a metaphor?

 

[Revoltingest]

As a beekeeper, I invade the hive several times a month. Even rob honey on occasion, from their perspective. I don't get stung, even without a suit. They're willing to forgive a lot because the alternative is a lot of bees dying in needlessly escalated violence. No point losing thousands of bees over a pint of honey.

How's that for a metaphor?

Terrible metaphor! It's symbiosis.
You don't take all the honey, or destroy the hives though.
In return, you offer the hives, & you sing to them (I presume).

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Without a culture of defending one's property, violent
perps could do as they please with impunity & no risk.
Criminals should fear immediate consequences.

Yet plenty of countries have unlocked doors and live their days without fear because, instead of being violently reactive, they focus o. Fixing social issues circulating around the poverty and healthcare which drives a lot of crime.

Fear leads to anger, hate, suffering, etc. We can do better than living in fear and trying to inflict it on others.

 

[Twilight Hue]

As a beekeeper, I invade the hive several times a month. Even rob honey on occasion, from their perspective. I don't get stung, even without a suit. They're willing to forgive a lot because the alternative is a lot of bees dying in needlessly escalated violence. No point losing thousands of bees over a pint of honey.

How's that for a metaphor?

You left out a small detail. Who's the smoker?

Just so you know, I was involved with commercial beekeeping for years. !O)

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Terrible metaphor! It's symbiosis.
You don't take all the honey, or destroy the hives though.
In return, you offer the hives, & you sing to them (I presume).

I am doing no more then bears do from their perspective.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yet plenty of countries have unlocked doors and live their days without fear because, instead of being violently reactive, they focus o. Fixing social issues circulating around the poverty and healthcare which drives a lot of crime.

Fear leads to anger, hate, suffering, etc. We can do better than living in fear and trying to inflict it on others.

There are places around here where we have unlocked doors.
But the looters & vandals do exist here, & must be coped with.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am doing no more then bears do from their perspective.

You're too modest about your contribution.
When @Wu Wei harvests goodies from a home....

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You left out a small detail. Who's the smoker?

Just so you know, I was involved with commercial beekeeping for years. !O)

I don't smoke my bees. You don't really need to once you're good at reading their body language, for lack of a better term. I have a smoker but only use it for killing certain types of mites. And I do it after shaking bees off.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

There are places around here where we have unlocked doors.
But the looters & vandals do exist here, & must be coped with.

Lot better ways of coping than shooting them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lot better ways of coping than shooting them.

I agree.
Some here confuse the last resort with initial measures.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't smoke my bees. You don't really need to once you're good at reading their body language, for lack of a better term. I have a smoker but only use it for killing certain types of mites. And I do it after shaking bees off.

News to me. I've never come across colonies like that. Even the European breeds.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree.
Some here confuse the last resort with initial measures.

Is it really the last resort though? As in, you could not get away so you were forced to shoot? I understand self defense when your life is on the line but a. Robbing doesn't deserve execution and b. Waving a gun is more likely to escalate the violence than deescelate it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is it really the last resort though?

I thought I made that clear.
For the record, I'm loath to harm anyone.
But I'm willing to if necessary to defend life & property.

As in, you could not get away so you were forced to shoot?

I wouldn't abandon my property to those intending to destroy it.

I understand self defense when your life is on the line but a. Robbing doesn't deserve execution and b. Waving a gun is more likely to escalate the violence than deescelate it.

You say it doesn't deserve execution.
Neither does my property.
But as I said, the life of someone who'd destroy
my property is worth less than the property.
I have a whole thread devoted to this somewhere
here on RF.

It's OK if you don't share my values. You're welcome
to abandon yours to thieves & vandals. I'd make a
different choice.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

News to me. I've never come across colonies like that. Even the European breeds.

Mine are a European species bred out of Sonora. I've never had to smoke, even when shaving bur comb or unwanted queen cells. If they start getting riled, I just give them a break and come back. And I don't service the hive when it's raining or outside foraging time.
I suspect it's only used in bee yards for time critical reasons. Because most hives are less aggressive than a lot of keepers think, I believe.

Again it's instinctual for bees to not fly off the handle (ha, pun) every break in or they'll diminish their numbers too much in the attack.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I thought I made that clear.
For the record, I'm loath to harm anyone.
But I'm willing to if necessary to defend life & property.

I wouldn't abandon my property to those intending to destroy it.

You say it doesn't deserve execution.
Neither does my property.
But as I said, the life of someone who'd destroy
my property is worth less than the property.
I have a whole thread devoted to this somewhere
here on RF.

It's OK if you don't share my values. You're welcome
to abandon yours to thieves & vandals. I'd make a
different choice.

Your property is not a person and is and should be valued less than even an intruder. I don't know how to tell you that basic moral. *shrug*

If there were an accidental fire and I had to choose between putting it out or save a robber's life i would let your place burn. And so should you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your property is not a person and is and should be valued less than even an intruder. I don't know how to tell you that basic moral. *shrug*

Those are your values, & hardly universal.
You believe that you're right, but actually you're just "not even wrong".

If there were an accidental fire and I had to choose between putting it out or save a robber's life i would let your place burn. And so should you.

I should conduct my affairs by your values, eh?