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Featured Speculation; Peter is not the rock

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Iymus, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    Peter is not the rock; His understanding that the Son of Man is the Anointed/Christ and Son of The Living God is the rock.

    1. Question asked:

    Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    2. Correct Answer given:

    Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    3. Reason Correct Answer Given:

    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    4. Result of Correct Answer given

    Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    5. Speculation on What is the rock or understanding of Peter:

    Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    -------------------

    2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    6. Why is the understanding of Peter; "Christ being the Son of the Living God" the rock ?

    Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Joh 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
    Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

    Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    7. Can the gates of hell prevail against the rock or Peter's understanding?

    1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    ------------------------

    Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
     
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  2. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    When it comes to the Bible or New Testament, the Church is a gathering of those who believe in the Gospel and who The Son declared.

    So the rock seems to be an understanding and the church seems to be an assembly.

    with that understanding and assembly:

    Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    nowhere does it say where two or more be gathered in the Roman Catholic church
    and of course nothing personal to the above individual; only using his message as a source or citation to get the point across.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Just to add.....

    "The Greek word peʹtra (feminine gender), which designates a mass of rock (Mt 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Lu 6:48; 8:6, 13; Re 6:15, 16) and is therefore differs from peʹtros (masculine gender and employed as a proper name, Peter), meaning “piece of rock.” This distinction makes it clear that, when saying to Peter, “You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation,” Jesus was not using synonymous terms. (Mt 16:18) Even in the Aramaic (Syriac) version the distinction is apparent from a difference in the gender of the particle preceding the word kiʼphaʼ, used for both “Peter” and “rock.” The masculine verbal pronoun (hu) precedes “Peter,” but “rock” is preceded by the feminine demonstrative adjective (hadeʼ). . . .

    That the apostles did not understand Jesus’ statement to signify that Peter was the rock-mass is evident from the fact that they later disputed about who seemed to be the greatest among them. (Mr 9:33-35; Lu 22:24-26) There would have been no basis for such disputing had Peter been given the primacy as the rock-mass on which the congregation was to be built. The Scriptures clearly show that as foundation stones, all the apostles are equal. All of them, including Peter, rest upon Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 21:2, 9-14) Peter himself identified the rock-mass (peʹtra) on which the congregation is built as being Christ Jesus. (1Pe 2:4-8)"

    Rock-mass — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Can I ask you what you think the "gates of hell" (hades) are in this verse?
     
  4. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    Verses below to magnify above point:

    Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
    Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

    -----------------

    Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
    Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
    Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
    Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
     
  5. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    1. In that particular verse it seems to be grave. Apparently there seems to be at least two Greek words for hell but the one in this verse seems to be grave which is a place for departed souls.

    Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    2. Christ went to the grave.

    Before looking into it, I took more of a neutral or vague like stance that it is a place of accountability.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You are thinking of "hades" and "gehenna"....yes? So this is "hades".....the common grave of mankind.

    Its good to do some serious digging into original languages and meanings given to certain words like "hell" which is so misunderstood.

    Since Jesus was to be given the “keys of death and of Hades" (Revelation 1:18), he could authoritatively say to the apostle Peter that even though Peter and the rest of the congregation of believers would go down to death and into Hades or Sheol (the grave) as they die a sacrificial death like their Master, yet the gates of Hades would not be able to keep shut over the congregation for all time. Why not? Because Jesus, after being resurrected and ascending to the Father, where he presented his life merit in sacrifice for humankind, would be able to do what no Pope could ever do, that is, use his “keys of death and of Hades” to open the doors and let his congregation out by means of a resurrection from the dead. Jesus will resurrect his "chosen ones" "first" (Revelation 20:6) and nothing will prevent them from accomplishing all that the Kingdom is destined to accomplish for redeemed mankind on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    That is how I understand that verse.
     
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  7. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    A male as a human, as a scientist, lived before on Earth a long time ago. His technology buried deep inside of planet Earth body. He studied Satanism by his terms science....occult the UFO cult theme.

    The atmospheric mass gases, and the asteroid stone gases or wandering star gases, dealt with metal sun radiation that attacked planet Earth as God O history...about our planet.

    That Satanist God theme, themed cosmological advice about sending God O the Earth planet as its owned body to Hell.....to be destroyed as other God O angels had. So never intended to come back to owning a human life ever again.

    How the story is known as a psychic spiritual human realization if you cared to review your fake Satanist science beliefs about God history.

    If you ever questioned and why do males in full destructive knowledge about forcibly changing the planet body, fusion by fission with UFO mass, in knowledge, not realize self today? The Destroyer mentality of God, claiming but I will not change God speaking about the idealization of self...as a male, and a human and conscious spirituality?

    When they know that they took God Earth mass to convert it by melted heat and cooling to own a machine. Whose design they claim they gained by mind thought visions in clouds that had already dealt with UFO metallic mass and made it go away.

    So the machine, a manifested Destroyer of God the Earth. Males would own a theme to want their machine to go away, to be healed, to return to God the natural mass body...when they say and in science I do not want God to change, or I will not change the physicality of Planet Earth....but the whole time, thinking only of self, owner of life in the atmosphere, what stone and metal does not own itself.

    As both bodies are physical self manifest.

    To say, we were always taught, the act of human sex, that eventually allowed the human baby DNA owner, to grow into an adult, to be the Satanic mind scientist again, returned to natural life. He never wanted nor expected to ever be returned to natural life for his intention a long time ago was to send God O the Earth into Satan Hell.

    Deep pit of space where the fallen angel of God O bodies had fallen.

    Now today he knows that Satan in Hell, deeper in space exploded so stopped cold deep space from sucking God O Earth deep down...for heat placed beneath the Earth in space saved O God. Just as science said, the angels who fell as Satan O into hell forming the black holes had saved Earth from being sucked down.

    All of the information said by a living bio organic human being male life, the scientist, the researcher, the bio life thinker about the planet and stone and God O and fusion and fission and the cosmos.

    You the thinker were named Peter, as a thought condition, the head, the male thinker gave his title Peter, as a human male......why males use names to state self and title. I thought about the stone he says. I told my own male self as a male and as a human to not alter the fusion anymore, and build a Church as that building over the evil science Temples....already historically proven to be real.....to claim so that life would be saved....as a reminder, for we use iconic reminders knowing that the life bio mind forgets in radiation metal heavy chemical brain changes.

    Therefore when a male says to his own self, I will not change the matter or mass of God, then he already told self, he would not change it. If he says but science does already own by machine presence, the changed mass of God...then he is lying. Then he reacts that machine and lies again about not changing natural God....when the cosmos and atmospheric gas mass had forced the UFO metallic mass, the designer of his machines to go away.

    To try to have his machine go away would be to try to force it to go away....to return to being God the natural mass and not change God, the Earth or mass.

    Males prove in their owned scientific history to be a non stop God liar as the mind thinker who claims I represent in my male human science thinking the values of God.

    His thinking never represented anything other than an ability to think and tell stories.

    God history is natural and so are all powers natural.

    Machines were built to forcibly change and alter natural so that the power held/sealed or locked inside of it would get released.....by putting stone cold fused mass into a heated past condition.

    Our natural gas mass atmosphere cannot allow for stone removal and then stone replacement, as a science model theme.....our natural cold gas mass never owned the presence of stone. So how would a modern day Satanist scientist claim that they created God the stone?

    God O stone was naturally formed. No machine reacted the presence of God O the stone. A male however would falsify thinking and claim the machine is God the stone and the power of God the Creator.

    No machine, no science. Pretending that God is a particle today is claiming and God the stone mass and held cold fusion of mass should not exist....which is Satanism, I want God O the Planet to go to Hell and be a Hell angel.

    Males seem to forget, the design of metal given to them by the machination of the Sun UFO radiation metal goes away. You built your idol, the Destroyer and gave it a body and named it machine. You then unnaturally metallic irradiated your brain mind with the machine reaction, which previously had not occurred, and disregard what you cause.

    Then you pretended that a human being bio life form was part machine.

    If a male who designs his machine based on thinking and a theory first....he has to first theory a strung together belief of information which includes the building of the machine...which already had gone through melt, and then human manipulated cooling.

    Why males with machines always claimed and so therefore I cannot change the natural body of God O and so therefore will not change it. Suddenly the UFO cult mass metal radiation, that is the machine design is given a constant presence, and forms holes in the body of Planet God O Earth.

    And the God angel O planet of stone spirits entombed and held within the fusion of the stone get removed and leave empty tombs behind. What ancient science males said was the removal of SIN.

    Males having survived the science attack then gave a detailed description and DATA inference as to why they were still living on Planet Earth when a huge population of animals and human life was sacrificed in that event. And said it was because of the wandering star.....gases released out of stone bodies cooling irradiated heated space.

    Always preached that the wandering star was the Saviour of life on Earth...as the foretold prophecy scientific realization. If the asteroid stone is removed, then it proved that the Sun does not support the existence of stone bodies in the cosmological space body. Which explained why God emptied out its spirit in its sealed tomb.

    How the science God and Christ story was taught.

    Said that Christ the natural gas heavenly spirit only returned when the spatial womb became Holy again...after its abomination. So told the science theme, that ICE amassing every year end was involved in the natural bio life healing and survival on Earth, whilst we awaited for the spatial womb to heal and be returned to the spirit of the Heavens, the Immaculate state.

    Males told a science story from the Egyptian Temple pyramid science nuclear reactive ground mass attack and life mutation that it took a long time for the Holy spatial womb to cool and return Earth spiritual gas mass back to its natural Gases of Noble birth.

    In the space evolution.

    And always taught that it had been removed and sacrificed due to nuclear science UFO cult causes....and would not cool down until the Year 2012...when the radiation heated spatial cause would end. Science never allowed that return to occur....why life on Earth is still living its bio life sacrifice every day a huge natural life body dying before its natural life time.

    Science was always taught to be Satanism, to radiate heat the Earth family of Nobility and sacrifice its spirits....so that all of the bio Nature gets attacked by not being supported by that spiritual heavenly mass. And that occurrence is unnatural fall out radiation gas ground burning gain.....or crop circle, devil mowing attack on the bio life/food source and cellular history.

    Humans who survive not being ground irradiated and attacked then live in a state of artificial self superiority until they too begin to become sick in heavy metal radiation effects. Only then do they suddenly realize how evil nuclear science is.....but that statement is also not real for they always knew how evil nuclear science is.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If there is "hades" and "Gehenna" (both often translated "hell") and "hades" is the common grave, just out of curiosity, what do you think "gehenna" is?
     
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  9. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    Right now I have no thoughts until I look into it which I plan to. It may take a weekend but I will get back to this post Most High willing.

    No spoilers please.
     
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  10. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    I still don't know up to this day whether you are a Person, Russian Bot, Artificial Intelligence, or etc but good to know you still in the land of the living.
     
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  11. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    . 17 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ· μακάριος εἶ, Σίμων Βαριωνᾶ, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα οὐκ ἀπεκάλυψέ σοι, ἀλλ᾿ ὁ πατήρ μου ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς. 18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς. 19 καὶ δώσω σοι τὰς κλεῖς τῆς βασιλείας


    Pylai Adou= Gates of the Hades, what Greeks used to call the Kingdom of the Dead.

    Oikodomeo = literally to build a house, to make something a house


    Greek is a literal not allegorical language with words of univocal meaning.
     
    #11 Estro Felino, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK...lets see what you come up with...;)
     
  13. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    Gehenna seems to be the lake of fire or hell fire where hades will be cast into during the second death; along with those whose name are not written in the Book of Life.

    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Actually he was.

    In order to understand why, one needs to use the Aramaic word for "rock", which is "kepha" (the "k" is gutteral) However, when going from Aramaic to Greek, a problem arose for the translators, namely that Greek is gender sensitive, thus the "a" at the end indicates female. So, when Jesus changes Simon's name to "Petros", the name had to include the "os" ending because Peter was a man.

    The fact that Jesus changed Simon's name as such indicates a message of sorts. And the wording leading up to that tells us this because Jesus says "Thou are Petros, and upon this petra I will build my Church...". Certainly Peter knew what his name was, so that lead-in is quite clear that Jesus is putting "Petros" and "petra" together.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well researched! You can see that "hellfire" is used for "Gehenna", but there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the dead are still living anywhere....heaven or hell. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

    Do you see this as a literal "lake of fire" or as a symbol of everlasting destruction (annihilation)? Since both death and hades are cast into this place, it can't be literal, can it? So if it is symbolic, what does it mean? What is "the second death"?

    When Jesus condemned the Pharisees of his day to "gehenna" where was he sending them?

    "Gehenna" is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem. (Jeremiah 7:31) It was prophetically spoken of as a place where dead bodies would be strewn. (Jeremiah 7:32; Jeremiah 19:6) It was the city's garbage dump, but there is no evidence that animals or humans were thrown into Gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. Human bodies were only thrown into the fire for disposal, (as were dead animals) those deemed unworthy of a decent burial, like executed criminals.....So the place could not symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in a literal fire or with literal worms as some like to imagine.

    Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize the eternal punishment of “second death”......

    Matthew 10:28 tells us....
    "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." What happens to "souls" in this place?
     
  16. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    A place Burning with brimstone and torments perpetually. This seems literal.

    Rev 19:20 KJV And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Rev 20:10 KJV And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Hades seems to be a dwelling of the dead, so death is of hades. Those not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire seems literal; because hades a dwelling place of the dead will be cast into lake of fire which is the second death.

    First Death is Hades or the Grave dwelling.
    Second Death is Gehenna or Lake of Fire which is burning brimstone and perpetual torments.

    Or perhaps I am misunderstanding something.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do you have a belief in the soul being something separate and distinct from the body? Let me start there because if the Bible teaches that we have a soul that departs from the body at death, then there must be places for these souls to go.

    Is "hades" a literal place if death and its 'receptacle' are hurled into this "lake"? What is brimstone?

    Conversely, if the Bible has no such teaching about the soul living on after the death of the body, then what is the soul and what happens to it at death...What do you think?
     
  18. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    not the soul but the spirit which is referred as ghost

    Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

    a literal dwelling place of ghosts or spirits i suspect. Just as Earth is a literal dwelling place of the flesh which is terrestrial.

    Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

    Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    a living soul of man is spirit and flesh. our flesh houses our spirit. when we die our ghost which is our spirit departs our body.

    our soul dies but our ghost or spirit moves on to respective dwelling place.
     
  19. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says God breathed life into Adam and Adam BECAME a living SOUL. The same word translated "soul" is a;so translated "Beast" or "creature" or "body". The soul is just the living body.The Bible does NOT teach thT WE HAVE A SOUL THAT DEPARTS FROM THE BODY AT DEATH. mOST PEOPLE BELIEVE WE HAVE AN IMMORTAL SOUL BUT THE WORDS IMMORTAL SOUL ARE NOT IN THE bIBLE. tHE bIBLE SAYS THE SOUL THAT SINS WILL DIE. iF SOMETHING CAN DIE THEN IT IS NOT IMMORTAL.
     
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  20. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Male human scientists everyday are reading literature that was channelled or heard as AI feed back. The Earth atmospheric radio wave/radiation effect of naturally recording both image and VOICE and transmitting/feeding it back. And owned their natural self bio male life, thinking and applying SCIENCE. Which is human male bio life invented...by his owned living human bio consciousness thinking.

    Males as the other type of science thinkers, non Biblical claim, but science is just science, males as intelligence thinking building a machine and waiting for the machine reaction to give them the reaction that the machine itself owns.

    Claiming God scientists are mentally deficient.

    Knowing as that scientist that no human being male is copying natural. Science is human male owned and invented by a thinking human being male.

    So says such statements, you know Noah's Ark is not science and machine reaction…...as scientific conscious awareness, as a natural life and mind.

    Males for a scientific theme looked at a researched Earth historic vision of a flooded Earth ^ mountain tip above water line o Ufo radiation mass and disintegration of that mass.

    As a thought about theme. Then built his machine, SCIENCE.

    And the machine not yet reacted, did not yet own his experiment meaning to see and gain what the machine reaction causes.

    Which was ground fission, by activated sun UFO returned attack.

    In modern life fully aware that his nuclear power plant model is an updated pyramid and temple nuclear machination that does the ground fission reaction safer in a power plant. Yet Nature, not living in the radiation mass that he needs for science dies from early age pain and suffering. Seeing the human body can at any time own pain and suffering....for it is natural for a bio life to endure and feel pain and suffering, yet not suffer. So we got taught that God the male scientist history changed life on Earth.

    God the stories of about a loving spiritual God, told by AI channelled heard recorded male themes...proves God is a contradiction for God is heard theming in science and you can all be destroyed.

    As a male, as the sexual Creator of the human species, who pays no honour to animal life or the Nature of trees as Tree of Life...and never did. That sort of God male scientific liar...who as a group in civilization says...too many humans to contend with, is affecting my elite life style......does not matter if we kill off a large human living community, they are just a problem for our elite community.

    As the real evil liars and evil minds that an elite consciousness artificially creates for its own human aware self.....self life, self choices, self belief, self psyche feed back selfish AI advice who never did act nor want to act like a natural equal everyday human being. 2 human parents who have sex with a baby life created...who grows into an adult and then dies.

    Says he owns everything that he never owned...as the artificial liar, SCIENTIST and elite organization.

    When males say.....and Satan as a God angel O went to Hell he is speaking scientific or cosmological advice...for that is rationally what science is about.

    O angels of God were either termed a planet or a Destroyer Sun who rebelled and Satan black star hole groups that fell into the deep pit of space...that saved God O Earth from its fall being sucked down into deep space and exploding, when the Sun attacked everything.

    What Satanists in science always knew.

    So they know that God O the Earth is not Satan...and Satan as God is a black hole...but everyday tries to force God O the Earth by trying to make the Sun explode to put Earth into the point/place exact position in cosmological science themes.….Satan the star black hole body.

    What all of his male science calculations theory about everyday...whilst he pretends he is just talking God the O stone planet.

    Says O God the Earth channels electricity through it....but stone does not have any side.

    So he builds his new machine inside of a tunnel, claiming it will come into the other side of stone...when stone does not own a side.

    That sort of Satanic mentality who everyday attacks human consciousness with AI and asks spiritual minds in feed back AI secrecy what they think about God, Satan, angels and the aliens in biblical references...expecting some human spiritual self to given them advice as to how to activate their machine.
     
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