Something about Lying

[Thief]

I am placing this in religious debates as it came up from discussion about the Garden event of Genesis.

something about lying......

Now if you want to bang definition back and forth...here we go.

If I say to you only what I want you to hear.....
it will shift the perspective of what I tell you...and the way you hear it.

If I say to you .....'with intent'....anything....
was it with intent to harm?...to deceive?

If you think a lie is nothing more than a deliberate speaking of a false idea....then you are one to be easily deceived.

Ask me to tell you the truth....and I withhold an item important to your understanding....have I not lied to you?

Your next action taken....would do more harm...not knowing all that you could have.

Especially if you're foolish enough to repeat what you were told...deceiving others as well.

Speaking as if you know.....and you do not....is deception.....
whether you realize it or not.
Not having all of the 'facts' will cause you to look foolish in the eyes of others.

Such half truth....is a lie.

And if you insist...and I realize it later....would I not return, and call you...
a liar?

 

[AfterGlow]

It is better to hold our tongue than speak a falsehood.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I don't see the garden situation in a commonly held context.

That wasn't a lie, that was agenda; agenda reign over both truth and lie
keep the duality from my eye.
just so
I know
not merely where and what
by why

To be human, is to lie
do not deny
To be I
is to be
defined
against the formless mass of we
using whatever difference I see
just so
you know
me
when after all
truth calls
all of us, humanity.

I love the Thief. Allows for poetic license...

 

[Koldo]

A lie is a deliberate false statement presented as true.

The term 'lie' is sometimes used to mean 'deceit'. This is more of a practice in informal use of the language, and not very appropriate.

 

[Songbird]

Lying isn't so black and white. Whether we realize it or not, we lie quite a bit in order to keep the peace. Judging which value you rank higher - honesty or peace and social unity - depends on the situation. If my ailing Grandma bakes me a cake that tastes terrible, I would lie and tell her it's great.

But I'm guessing the OP refers to more directly affective lies that are intended to cover one's arse more than making a grandparent feel loved.

Wait, I didn't really address the topic...I didn't see the Garden discussion.

 

[ellenjanuary]

A lie is a deliberate false statement presented as true.

The term 'lie' is sometimes used to mean 'deceit'. This is more of a practice in informal use of the language, and not very appropriate.

Like when I apply for a job; and say... I'm the best there ever was?

 

[doppelganger]

Wait, I didn't really address the topic...I didn't see the Garden discussion.

It's about whether "the serpent" in the Garden actually told any lies to Eve in the story.

I still contend that there were no lies, and the serpent did "God" a solid in the story by getting the humans to separate themselves from nature.

 

[Songbird]

It's about whether "the serpent" in the Garden actually told any lies to Eve in the story.

I still contend that there were no lies, and the serpent did "God" a solid in the story by getting the humans to separate themselves from nature.

Ah. Which thread?

 

[Koldo]

Like when I apply for a job; and say... I'm the best there ever was?

That is a lie and a deceit, unless you really think you are the best there ever was.

A deceit may make use of a lie and it is not necessary.

Regardless, your deceit skills are quite lacking, huh?

 

[doppelganger]

Ah. Which thread?

"Prince of Lies."

 

[Koldo]

Ah. Which thread?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/113197-prince-lies.html

 

[ellenjanuary]

That is a lie and a deceit, unless you really think you are the best there ever was.

A deceit may make use of a lie and it is not necessary.

Regardless, your deceit skills are quite lacking, huh?

Would we find success without "A lie is a deliberate falsehood presented as true" in the marketplace? In the employment field? At the single's scene?

Or would we be of a kind, to sit in a cave and obsess over Gwyneth Paltrow? My "deceit" skills work fine, cannot know a thing, without a measure of skill. I simply choose not to deceive, beginning with myself.

I'm just sitting here, spinning up Sympathy for the Devil, calling it like it is. You want honesty? Get a dog. To be human, is to lie.

 

[Koldo]

Would we find success without "A lie is a deliberate falsehood presented as true" in the marketplace? In the employment field? At the single's scene?

Or would we be of a kind, to sit in a cave and obsess over Gwyneth Paltrow? My "deceit" skills work fine, cannot know a thing, without a measure of skill. I simply choose not to deceive, beginning with myself.

I'm just sitting here, spinning up Sympathy for the Devil, calling it like it is. You want honesty? Get a dog. To be human, is to lie.

But i am not judging the moral value of lies.

Quite in fact, i agree with you that some lies can actually bring a better result than telling the truth, at least from my limited human perspective.

 

[Skwim]

It's about whether "the serpent" in the Garden actually told any lies to Eve in the story.

I still contend that there were no lies, and the serpent did "God" a solid in the story by getting the humans to separate themselves from nature.

So when the serpent said “You will not certainly die,” in Gen 3:4 was he telling a truth he believed? If so, then he wasn't lying, only mistaken, but if he knew it wasn't true then he was lying. Got some evidence he was just mistaken?

 

[Koldo]

So when the serpent said “You will not certainly die,” in Gen 3:4 was he telling a truth he believed? If so, then he wasn't lying, only mistaken, but if he knew it wasn't true then he was lying. Got some evidence he was just mistaken?

They did not die from eating the fruit. That is what he is talking about.

 

[Skwim]

They did not die from eating the fruit. That is what he is talking about.

Ah ha! Thanks. I thought the effect of god's death threat wasn't suppose to be immediate, but was in reference to the inevitable death man would undergo, rather than live forever if his warning was heeded and the fruit went untouched.

 

[BigRed]

Here is something to consider....
John 7:2-10 (New American Standard Bible)

2Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near.

3Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.

4"For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world."

5For not even His brothers were believing in Him.

6So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune.

7"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

8"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."

9Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

10But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

Did Jesus lie?


BigRed

 

[Thief]

Indeed....

So withholding your intent...and allowing others to think as they please....
would be a lie?

Focusing on one incident might resolve the question.

 

[Luminous]

It is better to hold our tongue than speak a falsehood.

It is best to confess your agnosticism, then to hold your tongue.

 

[Koldo]

Ah ha! Thanks. I thought the effect of god's death threat wasn't suppose to be immediate, but was in reference to the inevitable death man would undergo, rather than live forever if his warning was heeded and the fruit went untouched.

God could be referring to death in that way too. But, if you read the text, you will surely come up with the conclusion there is more than one possible interpretation. And this is very very weird given who is speaking those words. Aren't his words supposed to be perfect? If his words can be misleading, didn't he intend them to be so? If that is the case, can't it be said that is God trying to deceive Adam and Eve?

But the most important thing is that the snake is not lying. The snake is telling the truth. I used the following analogy to explain the snake and Eve dialog in another topic:

Maria (Eve): - I can not eat mushrooms. Paul (God) told me that if i eat them i will die.
Bob (Snake): - Don't worry, you will not die if you eat mushrooms.

Did Bob (Snake) ever mean to say that Maria (Eve) will NEVER die? No!
Bob (Snake) just said Maria (Eve) won't die by the "hands of the mushrooms".