Something about Lying

[Koldo]

I disagree.
"I'm the best there ever was" is an incomplete sentence.

The context fills the gaps.

 

[thebigpicture]

Prove it.

Actually, even if he (it) did knew that God never lies, you have to prove the snake knew that God never deceives.

Prove Adam, Eve and the infamous "serpent" even existed. You can't physically prove any of it. None of us were there. But, if you are going to go strictly by what the bible says, "deceptive" is not one of the words used to accurately describe god. Also, a lot of people see the serpent as being "the fallen angel" in disguise. Having been considered to be god's "right hand" in Heaven, he would definitely be very knowledgeable of god's personality.

And, either way, i don't remember saying the snake did not try to deceive Eve. I simply said the snake did not lie.

The serpent made a statement implying that god was lying. He made a statement to purposely mislead and deceive. Therefore, he lied.

 

[McBell]

The serpent made a statement implying that god was lying. He made a statement to purposely mislead and deceive. Therefore, he lied.

Or the Serpent told the truth and it was God who lied...

 

[Willamena]

...
Speaking as if you know.....and you do not....is deception.....
whether you realize it or not.
Not having all of the 'facts' will cause you to look foolish in the eyes of others.

Such half truth....is a lie.

And if you insist...and I realize it later....would I not return, and call you...
a liar?

The lie came first, and then the liar.

Picture, if you will, a world where everyone spoke honestly to the best of their knowledge. There was actually a movie made recently, called The Invention of Lying, that depicted just that.

If deceit is unintention and avoidable, we call it a mistake and learn from it. If deceit is intentional and avoidable, you've the rise of a new beast, the liar.

Where deceit is unavoidable, whether intentional or not, I would just call that "being human." The snake symbolizes the part of us (consciousness) that gives us humanity (lifts us "...out of the garden").

 

[Koldo]

Prove Adam, Eve and the infamous "serpent" even existed. You can't physically prove any of it. None of us were there. But, if you are going to go strictly by what the bible says, "deceptive" is not one of the words used to accurately describe god. Also, a lot of people see the serpent as being "the fallen angel" in disguise. Having been considered to be god's "right hand" in Heaven, he would definitely be very knowledgeable of god's personality.

We are considering, at this topic, that what the bible says is true. Therefore, the serpent, Adam and Eve did exist for all intents in this topic.

Many people do believe the snake is the fallen angel in disguise. However, you still would have to prove that at that given time the snake did know that God would never lie/deceive.

The serpent made a statement implying that god was lying. He made a statement to purposely mislead and deceive. Therefore, he lied.

God made a statement implying that eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge would cause the death of Adam. He made a statement to purposely mislead and deceive.

Also, do not confuse deception with lying.
They usually go together but not always.

 

[Thief]

The lie came first, and then the liar.

Picture, if you will, a world where everyone spoke honestly to the best of their knowledge. There was actually a movie made recently, called The Invention of Lying, that depicted just that.

If deceit is unintention and avoidable, we call it a mistake and learn from it. If deceit is intentional and avoidable, you've the rise of a new beast, the liar.

Where deceit is unavoidable, whether intentional or not, I would just call that "being human." The snake symbolizes the part of us (consciousness) that gives us humanity (lifts us "...out of the garden").

The first line seems impossible.
An idea exiting before conception?
Before the knowledge of good and evil?

A lie could be born of mis-perception.
An explanation brought on with poor observation followed by poor cognition.
As much might seem innocent enough.

But any idea can be taken to the extreme and used for good...
or the other extreme, and used as a stone in the path of others.

So a statement less than true....is true when spoken in innocence?

 

[Willamena]

The first line seems impossible.
An idea exiting before conception?

Is he a liar before a lie escapes his lips... standing in a forest... with no one around to hear... ?

Before the knowledge of good and evil?

A lie could be born of mis-perception.
An explanation brought on with poor observation followed by poor cognition.
As much might seem innocent enough.

But any idea can be taken to the extreme and used for good...
or the other extreme, and used as a stone in the path of others.

So a statement less than true....is true when spoken in innocence?

Are there any that are true, then?

 

[Desert Snake]

The lie came first, and then the liar.

Picture, if you will, a world where everyone spoke honestly to the best of their knowledge. There was actually a movie made recently, called The Invention of Lying, that depicted just that.

If deceit is unintention and avoidable, we call it a mistake and learn from it. If deceit is intentional and avoidable, you've the rise of a new beast, the liar.

Where deceit is unavoidable, whether intentional or not, I would just call that "being human." The snake symbolizes the part of us (consciousness) that gives us humanity (lifts us "...out of the garden").

interesting opinion.

 

[thebigpicture]

We are considering, at this topic, that what the bible says is true. Therefore, the serpent, Adam and Eve did exist for all intents in this topic.

Many people do believe the snake is the fallen angel in disguise. However, you still would have to prove that at that given time the snake did know that God would never lie/deceive.

Didn't you get my point? The point is that there are a lot of things you can't prove regarding the bible. But, if you are going to go by the bible, according to the bible, god was not ever accurately described as being untruthful, but the complete opposite. He was described as being perfect in every way. Angels know god extraordinarily well. They have knowledge that humans don't. Therefore, the fallen angel knew that god would never lie. Lying is a flaw in someone's personality. For it to be determined a fact that god was perfect, and for the serpent to paint god as being imperfect by implying that he was lying points to the fact that he (serpent) was intentionally deceiving Eve.

God made a statement implying that eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge would cause the death of Adam. He made a statement to purposely mislead and deceive.

He didn't imply anything. He outright said he would die. And Adam did indeed die. How on earth is that misleading and deceiving. He didn't tell Adam, "You're going to die as soon as you eat from eat." He said he would die, period.

Also, do not confuse deception with lying.
They usually go together but not always.

Lying is deception...plain and simple. Deception leads someone away from the truth. That deception doesn't always have to have ill intent behind it, but it is still deception. For instance, a person asks you, "How are you feeling?". Now you actually feel like crap, but you respond, "Great! And you?". You have just deceived that person into believing, you were feeling just fine, when all actuality you feel like you just got run down by a bus. There wasn't any ill intent behind your deception, but you deceived that person all the same. You led them away from the truth.

 

[Kathryn]

As the mother of five - all of which have inflicted teenagerism on me - I can assure you that lies take a wide variety of forms. But I knows one when I sees one!

I also work as a bank manager, and my training as the mom of teenagers has come in very handy. I've found that the key to separating lies from truth is knowing how to ask smart questions. And then keep asking.

I also believe that truth at the expense of someone else is usually selfishness. What I mean is that we often excuse ruthlessness and intentionally hurtful comments under the guise of "Well, I was just being honest!"

There are ways to be honest without being intentionally cruel. Just because something is the truth doesn't necessarily mean it has to be said or pointed out.

As for the question, "How are you doing?" with the less than honest, "I'm doing great!" I think that's too broad a brushstroke to call it a lie. Comparatively speaking, if you can walk, talk, breathe unassisted, and dress yourself, you're doing great compared to many people in this world. I think calling this a lie is splitting hairs. But if you want to split that hair anyway, you can always say, "Well, I'm doing better than some people - but every day has it's challenges, y'know?"

Your questioner will probably shut right up - they usually don't really care about your challenges and probably don't want to get involved in that discussion anyway!

In fact, if you really want to be a stickler for truth, the next time someone asks how you are doing, you could always look them dead in the eye and say, "Why are you asking? Do you really care, or are you just trying to be polite?"

See how far that gets you.

 

[Koldo]

Didn't you get my point? The point is that there are a lot of things you can't prove regarding the bible.

We are accepting the story of genesis at face value here.
Didn't you get my point?

But, if you are going to go by the bible, according to the bible, god was not ever accurately described as being untruthful, but the complete opposite. He was described as being perfect in every way.

Perfect in every way, such as perfect...lier.
Or perfect deceiver.

Angels know god extraordinarily well. They have knowledge that humans don't. Therefore, the fallen angel knew that god would never lie.

This is flawed logic.

Just because angels have more knowledge than humans it doesn't mean that angels know everything there is to know about God. Therefore, you have to prove that the serpent at that specific moment knew God would never lie and deceive.

Lying is a flaw in someone's personality. For it to be determined a fact that god was perfect, and for the serpent to paint god as being imperfect by implying that he was lying points to the fact that he (serpent) was intentionally deceiving Eve.

Perhaps the serpent was.
However, you would still have to prove the snake knew God would never lie and deceive.

He didn't imply anything. He outright said he would die. And Adam did indeed die. How on earth is that misleading and deceiving. He didn't tell Adam, "You're going to die as soon as you eat from eat." He said he would die, period.

Keyword here: Context.
Adam was most likely led to believe that he would die because the fruit would cause his death.

Our language makes use of context. People can deceive by simply omitting information. When certain information is omitted, the context fills the gap.

Lying is deception...plain and simple. Deception leads someone away from the truth. That deception doesn't always have to have ill intent behind it, but it is still deception. For instance, a person asks you, "How are you feeling?". Now you actually feel like crap, but you respond, "Great! And you?". You have just deceived that person into believing, you were feeling just fine, when all actuality you feel like you just got run down by a bus. There wasn't any ill intent behind your deception, but you deceived that person all the same. You led them away from the truth.

Lying is deception.
But deception is not necessarily lying.

Check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception#Types

 

[Thief]

Is he a liar before a lie escapes his lips... standing in a forest... with no one around to hear... ?



Are there any that are true, then?

So let's kick this up one notch.....

Let's say your next post is a lie.

You believe what you say.....you believe yourself to be honest...

But the angels come to see who speaks the truth.....
and lay sword to all who don't.

Does it still make a difference what you believe?
If what you say was not altogether correct.....and worthy of penalty....
does it matter how you felt about it?

 

[McBell]

So let's kick this up one notch.....

Let's say your next post is a lie.

You believe what you say.....you believe yourself to be honest...

But the angels come to see who speaks the truth.....
and lay sword to all who don't.

Does it still make a difference what you believe?
If what you say was not altogether correct.....and worthy of penalty....
does it matter how you felt about it?

You contradict yourself setting up your scenario...
Either the next post was a lie or she honestly believes it.
It cannot be both, given the definition of the word lie.

What you are presenting here is your angels putting sword to some one who is nothing more than just plain wrong.

If for the first five years of my daughters life I told her the world was flat, kept her away from all sources that would tell her the world is round, etc. so that she honestly believed the world was flat, and she then goes to school and tells the teacher that the world is flat, is she lieing?
Seems to me you are saying that she is lieing.

Perhaps it would be advantageous if you were to present your definition of the word lie..?

 

[Thief]

You contradict yourself setting up your scenario...
Either the next post was a lie or she honestly believes it.
It cannot be both, given the definition of the word lie.

What you are presenting here is your angels putting sword to some one who is nothing more than just plain wrong.

If for the first five years of my daughters life I told her the world was flat, kept her away from all sources that would tell her the world is round, etc. so that she honestly believed the world was flat, and she then goes to school and tells the teacher that the world is flat, is she lieing?
Seems to me you are saying that she is lieing.

Perhaps it would be advantageous if you were to present your definition of the word lie..?

As always...you didn't get it.

So what if you believe what you profess.

Isn't that the typical retort of nonbelievers?

But entry into heaven is not a choice we make.
It's up to that angel standing behind you.....with sword in hand.


If you have been deceived...and then go about repeating the deception....
does it matter that you believe it?

At some point the deception must be stopped.

Probably at that moment when you surrender your last breath.
No more pronouncement to make after that.

But will you proceed.....to that place where angels walk?
Will they allow it?

 

[Songbird]

Everyone has beliefs that may be false. Or true. Or bacon.

It's ridiculous to think the fate of immortal souls hangs in the balance of genuine if misguided beliefs, in my opinion.

As always...you didn't get it.

So what if you believe what you profess.

Isn't that the typical retort of nonbelievers?

But entry into heaven is not a choice we make.
It's up to that angel standing behind you.....with sword in hand.


If you have been deceived...and then go about repeating the deception....
does it matter that you believe it?

At some point the deception must be stopped.

Probably at that moment when you surrender your last breath.
No more pronouncement to make after that.

But will you proceed.....to that place where angels walk?
Will they allow it?

 

[Thief]

Everyone has beliefs that may be false. Or true. Or bacon.

It's ridiculous to think the fate of immortal souls hangs in the balance of genuine if misguided beliefs, in my opinion.

So you would favor a belief in which ...all go to heaven...no matter what?

 

[Songbird]

So you would favor a belief in which? ...all go to heaven...no matter what.

I don't favor any belief. Apart from beliefs which influence actions, I think they're irrelevant.

And for most people most religious beliefs don't influence most actions.

 

[Thief]

I don't favor any belief. Apart from beliefs which influence actions, I think they're irrelevant.

And for most people most religious beliefs don't influence most actions.

I'm not into religion.

Do you think a lack of religion will enter heaven?
Faith in whatever?

But whatever your belief might be....
To walk in heaven.....is there no common belief?
Don't they all....hold some belief in common?

And how is a lesser belief dealt with?
Is walking in heaven allowed?....assumed by anyone wanting in?

 

[Songbird]

I don't think there is a heaven. Or an afterlife.

I'm not into religion.

Do you think a lack of religion will enter heaven?
Faith in whatever?

But whatever your belief might be....
To walk in heaven.....is there no common belief?
Don't they all....hold some belief in common?

And how is a lesser belief dealt with?
Is walking in heaven allowed?....assumed by anyone wanting in?

 

[Thief]

I don't think there is a heaven. Or an afterlife.

So we could take it down a notch....

Imagine dealing with someone who really believes whatever he was told....
and he's willing to do harm for the sake of that belief.

Wars develop in this way.
Someone having an agenda convinces others to follow along.
Lines are drawn....bloodshed follows.

To stop it...all that believe must die.

See any of that in this world?