Something about Lying

[no-body]

8"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."

9Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

10But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

Did Jesus lie?

Jesus didn't lie. After they went he looked at his watch and realized it was time.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I am placing this in religious debates as it came up from discussion about the Garden event of Genesis.

something about lying......

Now if you want to bang definition back and forth...here we go.

If I say to you only what I want you to hear.....
it will shift the perspective of what I tell you...and the way you hear it.

If I say to you .....'with intent'....anything....
was it with intent to harm?...to deceive?

If you think a lie is nothing more than a deliberate speaking of a false idea....then you are one to be easily deceived.

Ask me to tell you the truth....and I withhold an item important to your understanding....have I not lied to you?

Your next action taken....would do more harm...not knowing all that you could have.

Especially if you're foolish enough to repeat what you were told...deceiving others as well.

Speaking as if you know.....and you do not....is deception.....
whether you realize it or not.
Not having all of the 'facts' will cause you to look foolish in the eyes of others.

Such half truth....is a lie.

And if you insist...and I realize it later....would I not return, and call you...
a liar?

This is the best thread ever.

 

[Skwim]

God could be referring to death in that way too. But, if you read the text, you will surely come up with the conclusion there is more than one possible interpretation. And this is very very weird given who is speaking those words. Aren't his words supposed to be perfect? If his words can be misleading, didn't he intend them to be so? If that is the case, can't it be said that is God trying to deceive Adam and Eve?

But the most important thing is that the snake is not lying. The snake is telling the truth. I used the following analogy to explain the snake and Eve dialog in another topic:

Maria (Eve): - I can not eat mushrooms. Paul (God) told me that if i eat them i will die.
Bob (Snake): - Don't worry, you will not die if you eat mushrooms.

Did Bob (Snake) ever mean to say that Maria (Eve) will NEVER die? No!

Sure he did. Any unqualified absolute has to be taken as just that: an absolute. And that's what the serpents pronouncement "“You will not certainly die,” was. It's as unequivocal a Subject--Predicate--Object statement as the universal E statement: All P are not Q.

 

[Luminous]

Sure he did. Any unqualified absolute has to be taken as just that: an absolute. And that's what the serpents pronouncement "“You will not certainly die,” was. It's as unequivocal a Subject--Predicate--Object statement as the universal E statement: All P are not Q.

Well, if the pre-snake said "you will NOT CERTAINLY die" then it was quite correct. nothing is certain Yaweh(once his wife departed) can lie(Abraham) or change his mind.

 

[Duck]

Sure he did. Any unqualified absolute has to be taken as just that: an absolute. And that's what the serpents pronouncement "“You will not certainly die,” was. It's as unequivocal a Subject--Predicate--Object statement as the universal E statement: All P are not Q.

According to the KJV (the one I grew up with), the quote by YHWH was:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"



The implication of the bolded part being that death was an immediate consequence of eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not an eventual consequence of that action. The snake's statement
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


Is entirely true, by admission of YHWH:


"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"


The snake was NOT acting deceitfully, it/He may have had an ulterior motive, but His statements were entirely truthful. YHWH's initial threat of "for in the day that thou eatest thereofthou shalt surely die" was the only falsehood uttered in these statements.

 

[Thief]

According to the KJV (the one I grew up with), the quote by YHWH was:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"



The implication of the bolded part being that death was an immediate consequence of eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not an eventual consequence of that action. The snake's statement
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


Is entirely true, by admission of YHWH:


"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"


The snake was NOT acting deceitfully, it/He may have had an ulterior motive, but His statements were entirely truthful. YHWH's initial threat of "for in the day that thou eatest thereofthou shalt surely die" was the only falsehood uttered in these statements.

And you are focused upon the body....

That you know the difference between good and evil is spiritual.

That Man did partake of a spiritual fruit would have a spiritual consequence.

There are two kinds of discussion going on here.....
One is literal.....the other is not.

 

[Thief]

And by the way....
this thread was more toward the nature of lying....
not the text of Genesis.

But if the example at hand helps to know the difference between good and evil...as well as the mechanism of deceit.....so be it.

 

[McBell]

A lie is a deliberate false statement presented as true.

Really?
If I spend the first five years of my daughters life telling her the world is flat and that anyone who tells her that the world is not flat is wrong and she goes to school and tells everyone the world is flat, is she lieing?


Seems to me that what makes a lie a lie is the intent to deceive.

 

[McBell]

Like when I apply for a job; and say... I'm the best there ever was?

That is a lie and a deceit, unless you really think you are the best there ever was.

I disagree.
"I'm the best there ever was" is an incomplete sentence.

 

[Skwim]

According to the KJV (the one I grew up with), the quote by YHWH was:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"

The Hebrew word that is translated as "day" in this verse in the KJV is "yowm," which has several meanings including:

1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b) day (24 hour period)
​

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year
​

Source: Strong's Concordance.
​

So, it's all up to the reader. Need it to mean a 24 hour day, then so be it. Need it to mean several days, then so be it. Need it to mean a year, then so be it. Need it to mean an undefined period, then so be it. And this is what's neat about the Bible, it can mean whatever the reader needs it to mean.

 

[Luminous]

According to the KJV (the one I grew up with), the quote by YHWH was:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"



The implication of the bolded part being that death was an immediate consequence of eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not an eventual consequence of that action. The snake's statement
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


Is entirely true, by admission of YHWH:


"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"


The snake was NOT acting deceitfully, it/He may have had an ulterior motive, but His statements were entirely truthful. YHWH's initial threat of "for in the day that thou eatest thereofthou shalt surely die" was the only falsehood uttered in these statements.

Its clear to me that any religion that includes angels and demons is polytheist pagan blasphamy. I am currently reading Paradise Lost, and it is clear in that interpretation that Satan and Beelzubub exist as "gods". If angels are immortal and powerful, they are gods (unless they have no free will, in which case God ordered Satan purposefully to create evil). The only exist that supposed monotheists have to deny their pagan anti-agnostic ways is by saying that God can end "gods" yet "gods" exist since Satan is a "god". unless Satan is also God's slave like the rest of the angels.

 

[McBell]

Its clear to me that any religion that includes angels and demons is polytheist pagan blasphamy. I am currently reading Paradise Lost, and it is clear in that interpretation that Satan and Beelzubub exist as "gods". If angels are immortal and powerful, they are gods (unless they have no free will, in which case God ordered Satan purposefully to create evil). The only exist that supposed monotheists have to deny their pagan anti-agnostic ways is by saying that God can end "gods" yet "gods" exist since Satan is a "god". unless Satan is also God's slave like the rest of the angels.

huh..?

 

[lilmama1991]

Lying is wrong in god's eyes but we're all imperfect so rather its a playful lie or one to get us out of trouble either way we do lie

 

[thebigpicture]

A lie is a deliberate false statement presented as true.

Very true. But, a person can lie without saying a word. For instance, there can be a room full of noisy people. Someone ("Robert") physically hurts someone else ("Jackson") just outside the room. One person ("Lisa") witnesses the beating. A short time later, an authoritative figure walks into the crowded room holding Robert by the arm and says in front of the silenced crowd in the room, "If you saw Robert beat up Jackson, raise your hand. If not, don't." Lisa, who is sitting in the room, squirms in her seat. No one raises their hand, including Lisa; she does not want to get involved. Lisa has just told a lie. Her not raising her hand is meant to deceive the authoritative figure into believing that she did not see a thing.

 

[thebigpicture]

God could be referring to death in that way too. But, if you read the text, you will surely come up with the conclusion there is more than one possible interpretation. And this is very very weird given who is speaking those words. Aren't his words supposed to be perfect? If his words can be misleading, didn't he intend them to be so? If that is the case, can't it be said that is God trying to deceive Adam and Eve?

But the most important thing is that the snake is not lying. The snake is telling the truth. I used the following analogy to explain the snake and Eve dialog in another topic:

Maria (Eve): - I can not eat mushrooms. Paul (God) told me that if i eat them i will die.
Bob (Snake): - Don't worry, you will not die if you eat mushrooms.

Did Bob (Snake) ever mean to say that Maria (Eve) will NEVER die? No!
Bob (Snake) just said Maria (Eve) won't die by the "hands of the mushrooms".

Either way you look at it, the serpent lied because he knew that god never lies. Regardless of when it was going to happen, he knew that if god said they were going to die, they were going to die. Therefore, by contradicting god, the serpent was intentionally deceiving Eve.

 

[Vansdad]

That is a lie and a deceit, unless you really think you are the best there ever was.

A deceit may make use of a lie and it is not necessary.

Regardless, your deceit skills are quite lacking, huh?

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

A lie is deliberate. To say you are the best may or may not be a lie depending on your intention.

 

[McBell]

Either way you look at it, the serpent lied because he knew that god never lies.

Here in lies the problem.
You assume that God did not lie.
You further assume that because of your first assumption, anything that is different from what god says has to be a lie.

 

[Koldo]

Very true. But, a person can lie without saying a word. For instance, there can be a room full of noisy people. Someone ("Robert") physically hurts someone else ("Jackson") just outside the room. One person ("Lisa") witnesses the beating. A short time later, an authoritative figure walks into the crowded room holding Robert by the arm and says in front of the silenced crowd in the room, "If you saw Robert beat up Jackson, raise your hand. If not, don't." Lisa, who is sitting in the room, squirms in her seat. No one raises their hand, including Lisa; she does not want to get involved. Lisa has just told a lie. Her not raising her hand is meant to deceive the authoritative figure into believing that she did not see a thing.

That is a silent statement.
No objections here from my part.

 

[Koldo]

Either way you look at it, the serpent lied because he knew that god never lies. Regardless of when it was going to happen, he knew that if god said they were going to die, they were going to die. Therefore, by contradicting god, the serpent was intentionally deceiving Eve.

Prove it.

Actually, even if he (it) did knew that God never lies, you have to prove the snake knew that God never deceives.

And, either way, i don't remember saying the snake did not try to deceive Eve. I simply said the snake did not lie.

 

[Koldo]

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

A lie is deliberate. To say you are the best may or may not be a lie depending on your intention.

I would say it depends rather on your belief than in your intention.
If you actually believe you are the best then this statement is true to you, and therefore you are not lying.