Socialism: evil impact

[Stevicus]

There ya go!
(I was already aware of the Merriam Webster definition,
having previously surveyed a range of dictionaries.)

Exactly. So now you know that I'm right. Thank you for your concession.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Could you do the same comparison in a real socialist country.....let's say N Korea?

Democratic Socialism is different than a dictatorship.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Some day, they'll come up with a standard term to
describe a capitalist country with a strong social
safety net.

Normal?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Hmm, not convinced. It's the definition in most dictionaries, for a start.

This seems like a No True Scotsman argument to me: [true] socialism has never been tried [yet] - and thus the failure of every socialism-inspired government to date can be dismissed as irrelevant.

I never said 'true' socialism has never been tried. I even said in an earlier post that N Korea started out as a socialist society, but isn't any longer because it's now an absolute monarchy, (once again, we don't call for example Tudor England 'socialist') where the workers no longer in any way control the means of production.

I also said that there isn't one single 'kind' of socialism (its a dynamic umbrella term) and that socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive concepts, and not everything falling under the term 'socialism' is even market adjacent. But red scare mentality (and lack of polysci education in the US, especially in older generations) attempts to push the concept that way.

 

[Revoltingest]

But again, you're attacking a straw man.

Au contraire, bruderherz.
I'm using standard definitions.
You're not.
Instead you use a non-standard personal definition.
If anything, tis your argument which smells of straw.

This is not the "socialism" that anyone's advocating.
Authoritarianism is right-wing, socialism, left.

There's no reason that left-wing regimes cannot be authoritiarian.
In fact, the more leftish they are, the more they tend to be exactly
that, eg, USSR, PRC, Cuba, Kampuchea.

Authoritarian states are born of right wing movements like Bolshevism, Fascism, Nazism and the Republican party. Socialism -- as popularly defined -- produces Scandinavian style societies.

The Scandinavian model is rife with capitalism, & in Denmark's case,
ranks above Ameristan in economic liberty. They're not socialist.
They're capitalist with an extensive social safety net.
Denmark to American leftists: We’re not socialist

 

[Revoltingest]

But the fact remains that the classical definition is a straw man used by the right to preserve their lucrative control of the commons.

I don't know what you mean by "classical".
I don't care what straw man the right erects.
Nor do I accept your personal definition...which
is remarkably like their claimed "straw man".
I use dictionaries.

 

[Revoltingest]

Exactly. So now you know that I'm right. Thank you for your concession.

And thank you for cromulation of my views.

 

[Revoltingest]

Democratic Socialism is different than a dictatorship.

It's a murky term.
So I won't disagree.

 

[Revoltingest]

Normal?

Perhaps some day.
I'm hoping for some compromise that provides what
people need, & with minimal coercion by government.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, but the designation is wrong, isn't it? Anybody can call themselves whatever they want, that doesn't make it so.

The "People's Republic" is a Totalitarian Dictatorship. The people have no say in anything. It's the opposite of socialist.
And if the government isn't The People then it's not socialist.
In classical socialism The People control the means of production. Control of 'the means of production' doesn't mean a command economy or control by a ruling class, it means a nation of worker controlled co-ops, like Mondragon.
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia

NK is definitely closer to a theocracy if we include the mythology about the Kim dynasty.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If we are to use commonly accepted definitions (ie, dictionary)
rather than personal definitions, then how the system came to
be is independent.

Definition of socialism | Dictionary.com
1) a theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.

Definition of communism | Dictionary.com
1) a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2) (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

One could even argue that "communism" better
fits N Korea's governance & economy.

They still have money and a state so it's not a real communist society.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Right...Norway, with a market economy is socialist.
N Korea, with a command economy is....uh...anything but socialist.

Lol, that's the common excuse. Anything to avoid admitting that Marxism is a total failure and has killed more people than any other ideology in history, perhaps even more than all the others combined.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

NK is definitely closer to a theocracy if we include the mythology about the Kim dynasty.

All totalitarian states we've seen so far - and there's only been less than a handful - have included state-enforced cults of personality around the dictator. It seems to be a necessary component for them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All totalitarian states we've seen so far have included state-enforced cults of personality around the dictator. It seems to be a necessary component for them.

This one puts the Kims on a level of divinity. It seems more like something we'd see in times past (such as a mythology surrounding founder), not like today where more commonly we see a more refined and well censored and edited image of an exceptional human. The Kims practically fart out gods amd crap blessings if we are to believe NK propaganda.

 

[metis]

There are different forms of "socialism": Socialism - Wikipedia

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This one puts the Kims on a level of divinity. It seems more like something we'd see in times past (such as a mythology surrounding founder), not like today where more commonly we see a more refined and well censored and edited image of an exceptional human. The Kims practically fart out gods amd crap blessings if we are to believe NK propaganda.

It's because their particular form of the cult of personality is intwined with Korean folk beliefs, especially when it comes to Paektu Mountain, which is a very sacred mountain according to Korean beliefs (it's like how Armenians feel about Mount Ararat). It's still not a theocracy, though. Not like Imperial Japan was with their twisted version of Shinto.

 

[Revoltingest]

They still have money and a state so it's not a real communist society.

The standard definitions of "communist" don't include being stateless.
But I addressed socialism specifically.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lol, that's the common excuse. Anything to avoid admitting that Marxism is a total failure and has killed more people than any other ideology in history, perhaps even more than all the others combined.

It seems that "socialism has never been tried"
depends upon "socialism" being a broad utopian
society that succeeds brilliantly. A tautology of
sorts....any failure cannot be socialism.
So they call capitalist systems they like "socialist"
because they're the only ones meeting the criterion
of successful.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The standard definitions of "communist" don't include being stateless.
But I addressed socialism specifically.

Communist society - Wikipedia

A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access[1][2] to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless,[3] implying the end of the exploitation of labour.[4][5]

 

[Revoltingest]

Communist society - Wikipedia

Definition of communism | Dictionary.com
1) a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2) (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.