Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Re slavery from the eons of humans.
You are saying, in effect, "Slavery is the issue and God hasn't done a good job of stopping it."
The assumption here is "slavery"
If the bible said that God would wipe out slavery then you have a point
But the bible doesn't say that.
And yet, it provides RULES for how to treat slaves - Hebrew slaves could be released in 6 years, but foreign slaves were property for ever.Nor does the bible speak about a whole range of social issues, from global warming to saving
the whales. What it does speak to is the universalism of man, brotherhood and love. But the
arbiter of this must be man himself, for he has been given free will. This is the job of the bible.
If you're trying to suggest that you think what this is saying is that a slave could just run away from their master and be free, then ... I don't have any words. That's absurd. All the slaves would just run away and people wouldn't buy slaves because they'd lose their money right off the bat. All the other laws about slavery would be a waste of parchment, because there wouldn't actually be any slaves.Isn’t this interesting on slavery.
Duet 23:15 “… “You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him…”
You help return lost property in the last chapters but when it comes to slaves… you let them stay free.
n
That's for Jewish slaves, not Canaanite slaves. For Canaanite slaves, it says in Lev. 25:46 that they must remain slaves forever.Freedom for slaves built into the law and in more than one way. The year of jubilee when slaves were set free another example.
Surely you do not expect the devoted to read ALL of their holy book? They seem to solely focus on the 'good stuff' that, when 'read the right way', comports with their political/social views, and take at face value the admonitions of charismatic 'leaders' who tell them to ignore all that bad stuff that the haters quote... from their holy book...I thought I commented in this thread, but it looks like I didn't.
If you're trying to suggest that you think what this is saying is that a slave could just run away from their master and be free, then ... I don't have any words. That's absurd. All the slaves would just run away and people wouldn't buy slaves because they'd lose their money right off the bat. All the other laws about slavery would be a waste of parchment, because there wouldn't actually be any slaves. Come on, I know you're Christian, but just try to use your head.
That's for Jewish slaves, not Canaanite slaves. For Canaanite slaves, it says in Lev. 25:46 that then must remain slaves forever.
This is wrong. In Jewish Law, chattel slavery is the required form of slavery for Gentile slaves.The Torah doesn’t allow for chattel slavery. The fact is that Judaism is the first religion that doesn’t allow chattel slavery.
Foreign slaves were not considered neighbors. Other tribes (foreigners) were not neighbors, they were enemies.
I firmly believe that the problem is pigheadedness. Yours, of course. The issue is exceedingly simple, and I am quite sure (again, opinion here, but I feel I have a lot of experience with you and these texts backing me up here) that you lament that fact that The Bible even contains these words. You don't like the fact that you have to defend the book in this way - and defend it you must. Because what it says is just plain wrong. The ideas that we're talking about are old, outdated, immoral by today's standards, and just plain horrific in implication. It's that easy... but YOU are the one who wants to make it difficult, because you just can't help yourself but try to defend these foolish ideas you've been clinging onto for so long. To double-back now would seem like so much has been wasted. I get it. Unfortunately, that's where you stand - that's where you apparently want to stand. So good luck to you. Go stand there... but never, ever ask me to stand alongside you back there. It's so far I can barely even see you waving that dirty, beckoning hand of yours.
Can you quit your job at any time you wish? Can you? You know the answer. Don't be so foolish as to equate two things that are not equal. This is one of the things theists consistently try to get away with that discredits them to no end in the eyes of anyone who can see through their crap.
Unless they are gay or Mexican, am i right?Jesus said love your enemies.
Is that why you implied all evolutionists are racists? based on the typical righty disinformation you have fallen for?You are also adding (again) Bible interpretations rather than quoting the scriptures. Then you claim you don't need to look at the article with the apologist's interpretations/contexts, which is a double standard.
That's great for Jesus.Jesus said love your enemies.
You are also adding (again) Bible interpretations rather than quoting the scriptures. Then you claim you don't need to look at the article with the apologist's interpretations/contexts, which is a double standard.
Is this seriously where we are now? Comparing slavery to being employed? This is pathetic.I cannot quit my job at will when I need to put food on the table. Someone who lost a house and land through, say, a firestorm, could live with a neighbor and work in exchange for food and shelter. You've ignored my posts on this thread about debts beautifully remitted and etc.
Ah, okay, so there's a context in which owning human beings as property is moral? This just gets worse and worse.I don't "have to" defend anything. Atheists hone in on about five scriptures in the entire Bible, all of them utterly out of context and also, logic, which to me, seems like a spiritual deception rather than the use of reason.
Enslavement and extermination is a loving act? You are getting stranger by the minute.
Yes... yes you still can. You can. Can. CAN.I cannot quit my job at will when I need to put food on the table.
Then why not just stop? Can you? I wonder. Seems like a compulsion to me. Regardless, the scriptures DO need defended by someone - otherwise they would be ripped apart.I don't "have to" defend anything.
Your funny little quip about "five scriptures in the entire Bible" is extremely misrepresentative. There are sites dedicated to cataloging the thousands of (even minute) contradictions within The Bible that span all over the place. There are huge glaring holes that people have picked into even the most supposedly "robust" or important pieces of scripture - like the sermon on the mount. And let's not forget the stupidity of the first 3 commandments - which seem to try and make morality all about how one should treat "God" rather than how one treats his fellow man. I submit that the very idea of morality doesn't have much more to do with anything other than our treatment of our fellow life-forms on this planet. No intelligently crafted prescriptive text on morality is going to include references to beings from another realm that no one can verify exist. The Bible is replete with old, outdated, numskull ideas, stories of God's own mistakes, attempts to fix mistakes, God's perpetration of genocide, infanticide, and with the "destiny" purported to be behind Jesus' crucifixion and God's hand in crafting "the plan" one could argue filicide. So... here we have HUGE tenets of your religion, all of which you know have been under the gun from nonbelievers. "Five scriptures." Pah. You apparently need to get out more.Atheists hone in on about five scriptures in the entire Bible, all of them utterly out of context and also, logic, which to me, seems like a spiritual deception rather than the use of reason.
I read a book titled "Self Contradictions in the Bible" about 30 years ago. It was first published in the 1800s. Anonymously. Seems the author was afraid of what might happen to him.Your funny little quip about "five scriptures in the entire Bible" is extremely misrepresentative. There are sites dedicated to cataloging the thousands of (even minute) contradictions within The Bible that span all over the place.
There are huge glaring holes that people have picked into even the most supposedly "robust" or important pieces of scripture - like the sermon on the mount.... The Bible is replete with old, outdated, numskull ideas, stories of God's own mistakes, attempts to fix mistakes, God's perpetration of genocide, infanticide, and with the "destiny" purported to be behind Jesus' crucifixion and God's hand in crafting "the plan" one could argue filicide. So... here we have HUGE tenets of your religion, all of which you know have been under the gun from nonbelievers. "Five scriptures." Pah. You apparently need to get out more.
I always have to shake my head in wonder at the theists who claim that atheism is some modern development. Obviously there have been people questioning these things as long as there have been people advocating for them. When even a person of a different religious persuasion is a "nonbeliever" toward your claims, you kind of have no choice but to admit that "non-belief" has been around even longer than belief in every single case.I read a book titled "Self Contradictions in the Bible" about 30 years ago. It was first published in the 1800s. Anonymously. Seems the author was afraid of what might happen to him.
It was an interesting book - no commentary at all - just one line of scripture above, another line of contradictory Scripture below. Hundreds of examples.
Now that's amazing. No stoop is too low, I guess. Though I have to wonder how you can claim two conflicting pieces of writing are simultaneously true.I think the deluded apologists claim these as evidence of the bible's truth - they call it the 'argument from embarrassment' or some such nonsense. For why would bible scholars repeat such embarrassing writings from their Holy Scriptures if they were not TRUE???
There are any number of groupings of 5 that should have any rational person wondering what the hell is going on in that book. I remember hearing tell of a guy who went into Bible studies with the intent of getting the conversation around to "this one religion he heard about." And once he had the people's attention, he would rattle off a bunch of fairly obscure and weird/incomprehensible things from The Bible itself, as if they were the tenets/beliefs of this other religion. Then, once they had gone around the room and all denounced those things as crazy and so obviously wrong or stupid, then he'd lay the truth on them about the fact that those things are found in The Bible - not some other religion - THEIRS.And even if it was a mere '5 Scriptures' - Slavery is OK; Slaughter infants if their parents don't worship ME ME ME; eat shellfish and DIE!; bring me foreskins!; wander for 40 years trying to get to a place that you can walk to in a couple of days!; etc. - those 5 should be plenty for a sensible person to scratch their heads and think, "Do I really want to base my life on this nonsense?"
Come again?The Torah doesn’t allow for chattel slavery. The fact is that Judaism is the first religion that doesn’t allow chattel slavery.
I can only imagine how that went over...And once he had the people's attention, he would rattle off a bunch of fairly obscure and weird/incomprehensible things from The Bible itself, as if they were the tenets/beliefs of this other religion. Then, once they had gone around the room and all denounced those things as crazy and so obviously wrong or stupid, then he'd lay the truth on them about the fact that those things are found in The Bible - not some other religion - THEIRS.
Jesus said love your enemies.
You are also adding (again) Bible interpretations rather than quoting the scriptures. Then you claim you don't need to look at the article with the apologist's interpretations/contexts, which is a double standard.
First - please clarify - is it your position that war captives and conquered peoples should be kept as slaves?Hi
For all those condemning the Bible for allowing slavery, could they please supply what the alternative for war captives and conquered peoples would actually be.
Without a "welfare state" what other solution to destitution is available in the ancient world?
Would banning slavery amongst the Hebrews have stopped the Babylonians, Assyrians, Elamites, Egyptians, Mitani, Hurrians, Philistines, Canaanites and ALL others from carrying on slavery?
HiFirst - please clarify - is it your position that war captives and conquered peoples should be kept as slaves?
Second - could not the Creator of the Universe devise a better system?
Well golly - obviously slavery!
Wait -so are you implying that the one true God - Jehovah - had no influence on he Babylonians, Assyrians, Elamites, Egyptians, Mitani, Hurrians, Philistines, Canaanites and ALL others? That Jehovah was just a tribal deity of the Hebrews?