Slavery in the Bible: more than meets the eye?

[BilliardsBall]

Yes... yes you still can. You can. Can. CAN.

Is it just commonplace to tell lies as arguments now or what? I must have missed the memo.

Then why not just stop? Can you? I wonder. Seems like a compulsion to me. Regardless, the scriptures DO need defended by someone - otherwise they would be ripped apart.

Your funny little quip about "five scriptures in the entire Bible" is extremely misrepresentative. There are sites dedicated to cataloging the thousands of (even minute) contradictions within The Bible that span all over the place. There are huge glaring holes that people have picked into even the most supposedly "robust" or important pieces of scripture - like the sermon on the mount. And let's not forget the stupidity of the first 3 commandments - which seem to try and make morality all about how one should treat "God" rather than how one treats his fellow man. I submit that the very idea of morality doesn't have much more to do with anything other than our treatment of our fellow life-forms on this planet. No intelligently crafted prescriptive text on morality is going to include references to beings from another realm that no one can verify exist. The Bible is replete with old, outdated, numskull ideas, stories of God's own mistakes, attempts to fix mistakes, God's perpetration of genocide, infanticide, and with the "destiny" purported to be behind Jesus' crucifixion and God's hand in crafting "the plan" one could argue filicide. So... here we have HUGE tenets of your religion, all of which you know have been under the gun from nonbelievers. "Five scriptures." Pah. You apparently need to get out more.

If a omnipotent, omniscient, just and loving God exists, it's "stupidity" to place Him above else, make Heaven and miss Hell (Command 1 that you call "stupid")? I don't see that stance as logical, consistent, pragmatic, self-affirming...

 

[BilliardsBall]

Nothing to do with slavery, of course, it may be interpreted that you should also love your slaves, but they are still slaves throughout history



No double standard on my part, but indeed the Hebrews had a standard of indentured servitude for Hebrews and slavery for foreigners as specifically described in scripture. I am not adding interpretations, you are. I cited specific citations from the Bible that Hebrews had foreign slaves, and it is matter of fact from scripture that foreigners were enemies and neighbors, and subject to slavery by Hebrews as owned and bought and sold.

Still no response explaining the scripture cited describing slavery by the Hebrews.

Yes, there were different laws for Hebrews and non-Hebrews. Jesus will return, exalt His other chosen people, and put the rest in Hell eternally IMHO. The meek shall inherit, the Jews shall, the Christians shall. Adds perspective.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If a omnipotent, omniscient, just and loving God exists, it's "stupidity" to place Him above else, make Heaven and miss Hell (Command 1 that you call "stupid")? I don't see that stance as logical, consistent, pragmatic, self-affirming...

Even if an omnipotent, omniscient, just and loving God exists - were He to ask me to kill my own son (which happens in The Bible, let's remember - so this isn't some "far fetched" scenario), do you know what I'd tell him?

"Get spanked. Ain't happening you pompous horse's behind."

Or something along those lines, showing that, in no way do I feel the need to respect anyone or anything who would make such a request. And if He didn't immediately apologize and explain himself to my satisfaction then our relationship would be over. Over. Simple as that. So you see... even if God exists, I would prize the relationship I have with my son over any relationship I could have with God any day of the week. To gain a place in my heart equal to that of my son, God would need to do A HELL OF A LOT more to foster our relationship. As it stands, can you guess how much He has done? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Now... I've had a lot of people who sound like they have no idea what the hell they are talking about come to me and tell me they are speaking on behalf of God - but that means nothing. Nothing at all. I would never pretend to have a relationship with someone who I only "know" because OTHER PEOPLE have come to me telling me I need a relationship with this other person. That's just asinine. A complete waste of time, effort and emotion.

If you don't prize your fellow man over an entity you can't even be sure exists or not then there is something wrong. Very wrong. With that being a plausibly held mindset by the majority of humans, it is no wonder we don't take care of one another very well. Your fellow human being is more important than God. Period. Even GOD SHOULD BELIEVE SO. If He doesn't, then He isn't very loving toward humans. Honestly now. Do you not prize your own wife, son, daughter OVER yourself? Would you not die for them? Should God demand that we all prize Him above all other things? Shouldn't He instead recognize that other things in other beings lives may be more important than Himself? I certainly realize this - and in my estimation, that makes me leagues more morally aligned than God can ever be. The people who imagined Him didn't give Him a very good starting point - His attributes are simply terrible. I actually feel sorry for the guy. If He exists that is.

 

[tas8831]

Hi

First - please clarify - is it your position that war captives and conquered peoples should be kept as slaves?

My position... well it seems to be a fact that the ancient world had NO mechanism to deal with captured combatants other than slaughter or slavery.

But that is not the issue, is it?

I agree with you, for the most part, but we are not talking about the sick foibles of humans in ancient times, we are talking about the influence/rules laid out by the CREATOR of all things. Could not have this God made it a rule - maybe even refer to it as a, gosh, I don't know, Commandment - that 'thou shalt not keep my other human creations as property' or something? And then give these Commandments to ALL nations of the world, rather than just the Hebrews?

What is YOUR solution to having captured 30 000 armed combatants.

Take their weapons and send them home? Remember - we are not talking about ME or even people, but Jehovah the supposed CREATOR GOD and why He didn't proscribe slavery.
Shouldn't He have had the wherewithal to do so?

Truly to have any credibility in attacking what they did do, then you must have an idea for what they should have done instead.

Truly I am not claiming or implying that I am omniscient and omnipotent and the CREATOR GOD of all things and thus am just wondering thy such a being did NOTHING about slavery.

Can't eat fish with no scales, that is an abomination. Slavery? Oh, right - ummm... since ya'll are my favorites, you can keep each other as slaves for, say, 6 years? But them furriners - you can keep them forever and beat 'em if you want.

Second - could not the Creator of the Universe devise a better system?

I'm not sure why you would think God devised the system.

Well, we see nothing in the bible proscribing slavery - at best, there are some guidelines for how to treat different kinds of slaves.

Jehovah took the time to lay down the law on wearing clothing made from 2 kinds of thread, but didn't see an issue with slavery? Seems more and more like the bible is just a collection of weird and grotesque habits, folkways, rules and such devised to justify the way the current hegemony liked it.

"God" did not get involved in the warfare business until the time of Abraham, this was when he chose the family through whom the seed would appear. The rules of warfare, mass slaughter or enslavement of captives and all the other stuff were already set by the nations that existed.

Before Jehovah?

If you know anything about Gen3:15,16 then you know that God left the rebellious world to make its own rules and he has to navigate his people amongst and within the systems that prevailed.

Well, except for those Commandments and all that, where we see the undergirding of capitalism rent asunder (no coveting!), and an order about how to spend your weekend, sure - we are just left to our own devices. Well, until God felt like intervening again - not to put an end to slavery or anything, mind you...

Well golly - obviously slavery!

Ok ... but sarcasm without an alternative is just a waste of time.

OK, but I am not claiming to have ultimate power of creation and the like. In the Civil War, prisoners were often paroled (i.e., let go) when the victors could not take care of them. Some of those parolees probably rejoined the fight later, but I'm betting some did not. They COULD have been kept as slaves, but weird thing - even in those times, keeping slaves was frowned upon. Well, unless you were a religious southerner.

The only alternative the ancient world had was death of one form or the other, but cool, what is your solution to the homeless and destitute in the ancient world?

Yes, I guess you are right - just death and slavery for the poor. Nobody could have possibly come up with anything other than death and slavery....:

Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

I mean, who will take THAT to heart.... Too impractical - must instead build a wall.

Wait -so are you implying that the one true God - Jehovah - had no influence on he Babylonians, Assyrians, Elamites, Egyptians, Mitani, Hurrians, Philistines, Canaanites and ALL others? That Jehovah was just a tribal deity of the Hebrews?

OF COURSE Jehovah - had no influence on he Babylonians, Assyrians, Elamites, Egyptians, Mitani, Hurrians, Philistines, Canaanites and ALL others

OF COURSE Jehovah was just a tribal deity of the Hebrews

So why worship Him? If he was just a Hebrew tribal deity, why bow down to Him when I'm sure the tribe in your genealogy had its own tribal deity?
Especially when Jehovah was all about slavery and misery...

It really seems that you have a basic misunderstanding of the story that the Bible tells.

No, I understand much of it - I just see a lot wrong with it, and cannot understand how people living in this information age can take these rather barbaric, and frankly grotesque "teachings" and find them to have merit. Hence my sarcasm -

'why did God allow slavery?"
'Well see, thats the way it was back then!'
'But isn't God all powerful? Didn't God give the Commandments and such?'
'Yup - our God is amazing!'
'then why didn't he do away with slavery?'
'well, see, thats the way it was back then'

That 'logic' doesn't work for me - and it really shouldn't work for any thinking person.

Surely though the concept of "Gods chosen people" is somewhere in your database, these people were the ONLY ones that God claimed ownership of, the rest of mankind were left to make their own way and the two seeds were to co-exist until the end.

So, NOT all-loving and all that, I guess. Just Hebrew-loving. Just think - YOU could have been the permanent slave of some Hebrew back then.... Proud?

What did these ancient Hebrews do to deserve such special recognition?

Why did God abandon 99% of his human creations in favor of one little band of nomadic slaves?

I don't get it - do you think these people were the ONLY ones that God claimed ownership of, the rest of mankind were left to make their own way makes any sense?

Peace

Peace is Slavery, apparently...
Love is death...

 

[tas8831]

Come again?

He is thinking of Vermont - outlawed slavery in their state constitution when it became a state.

 

[tas8831]

Yes, there were different laws for Hebrews and non-Hebrews. Jesus will return, exalt His other chosen people, and put the rest in Hell eternally IMHO. The meek shall inherit, the Jews shall, the Christians shall. Adds perspective.

Matthew 16:28
"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

So where are these 2000 year old Hebrew dudes?

 

[calm]

Jesus is a servant of the God. So how is it that a servant of the God can be the God?

Who's the bride's husband? Father or son?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Matthew 16:28
"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

So where are these 2000 year old Hebrew dudes?

Have you ever heard of "The Wandering Jew"? A mythical character whose origin partially lies in the verses from the Bible that say that not all would die before he returned:

Wandering Jew - Wikipedia

Most Christian literalists merely try to reinterpret those verses since they are so incredibly inconvenient.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, there were different laws for Hebrews and non-Hebrews. Jesus will return, exalt His other chosen people, and put the rest in Hell eternally IMHO. The meek shall inherit, the Jews shall, the Christians shall. Adds perspective.

Okay as far as you believe, but not the issue of the thread.

 

[nPeace]

Who's the bride's husband? Father or son?

The son.

(Revelation 19:7-9)
7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. 8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen - for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” 9 And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.”

(Revelation 21:2)
I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Revelation 21:9, 10)
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God

 

[calm]

The son.

(Revelation 19:7-9)
7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. 8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen - for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” 9 And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.”

(Revelation 21:2)
I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Revelation 21:9, 10)
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God

Almost right.
The father is also called the husband in the Bible. (Isaiah 62:5)(Isaiah 54:5).
Jesus and God are the same person. For two different men cannot marry the same woman.

 

[Moz]

But that is not the issue, is it?

I agree with you, for the most part, but we are not talking about the sick foibles of humans in ancient times, we are talking about the influence/rules laid out by the CREATOR of all things. Could not have this God made it a rule - maybe even refer to it as a, gosh, I don't know, Commandment - that 'thou shalt not keep my other human creations as property' or something? And then give these Commandments to ALL nations of the world, rather than just the Hebrews?


Take their weapons and send them home? Remember - we are not talking about ME or even people, but Jehovah the supposed CREATOR GOD and why He didn't proscribe slavery.
Shouldn't He have had the wherewithal to do so?

Truly I am not claiming or implying that I am omniscient and omnipotent and the CREATOR GOD of all things and thus am just wondering thy such a being did NOTHING about slavery.

Can't eat fish with no scales, that is an abomination. Slavery? Oh, right - ummm... since ya'll are my favorites, you can keep each other as slaves for, say, 6 years? But them furriners - you can keep them forever and beat 'em if you want.


Well, we see nothing in the bible proscribing slavery - at best, there are some guidelines for how to treat different kinds of slaves.

Jehovah took the time to lay down the law on wearing clothing made from 2 kinds of thread, but didn't see an issue with slavery? Seems more and more like the bible is just a collection of weird and grotesque habits, folkways, rules and such devised to justify the way the current hegemony liked it.

Before Jehovah?

Well, except for those Commandments and all that, where we see the undergirding of capitalism rent asunder (no coveting!), and an order about how to spend your weekend, sure - we are just left to our own devices. Well, until God felt like intervening again - not to put an end to slavery or anything, mind you...

OK, but I am not claiming to have ultimate power of creation and the like. In the Civil War, prisoners were often paroled (i.e., let go) when the victors could not take care of them. Some of those parolees probably rejoined the fight later, but I'm betting some did not. They COULD have been kept as slaves, but weird thing - even in those times, keeping slaves was frowned upon. Well, unless you were a religious southerner.

Yes, I guess you are right - just death and slavery for the poor. Nobody could have possibly come up with anything other than death and slavery....:

Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

I mean, who will take THAT to heart.... Too impractical - must instead build a wall.
So why worship Him? If he was just a Hebrew tribal deity, why bow down to Him when I'm sure the tribe in your genealogy had its own tribal deity?
Especially when Jehovah was all about slavery and misery...

No, I understand much of it - I just see a lot wrong with it, and cannot understand how people living in this information age can take these rather barbaric, and frankly grotesque "teachings" and find them to have merit. Hence my sarcasm -

'why did God allow slavery?"
'Well see, thats the way it was back then!'
'But isn't God all powerful? Didn't God give the Commandments and such?'
'Yup - our God is amazing!'
'then why didn't he do away with slavery?'
'well, see, thats the way it was back then'

That 'logic' doesn't work for me - and it really shouldn't work for any thinking person.


So, NOT all-loving and all that, I guess. Just Hebrew-loving. Just think - YOU could have been the permanent slave of some Hebrew back then.... Proud?

What did these ancient Hebrews do to deserve such special recognition?

Why did God abandon 99% of his human creations in favor of one little band of nomadic slaves?

I don't get it - do you think these people were the ONLY ones that God claimed ownership of, the rest of mankind were left to make their own way makes any sense?

Peace is Slavery, apparently...
Love is death...

Hi

Could not have this God made it a rule - maybe even refer to it as a, gosh, I don't know, Commandment - that 'thou shalt not keep my other human creations as property' or something? And then give these Commandments to ALL nations of the world, rather than just the Hebrews?

Right here is where you run off the rails. This is Genesis stuff, right at the start, do you really have NO IDEA what the Bible is about.......This passage actually answers quite a few of your points, that's why i quoted it in my initial response but you obviously did not even look at it Gen3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

. There are the TWO sides. Jehovah DOES NOT make rules for satans seed. I get that some people enjoy slagging off the Bible but it works much better if you at least know the basic premise of the story.
..........................................................................

Take their weapons and send them home?
This is your solution for captured soldiers in the Bronze age world. No wonder you put a question mark at the end.REALLY. The "Parole" line was hilarious as well. I actually had a guy once suggest a "Geneva Convention" type arrangement that is sort of like your parole idea.... it takes about 20 seconds to see how that won't work. You really are not serious about trying to understand this in its context are you.
.........................................................................
Yes, I guess you are right - just death and slavery for the poor. Nobody could have possibly come up with anything other than death and slavery....:

Well , YOU, didn't come up with anything that would have addressed the problem. The quote about charity is a help but not a socio/ecomonic solution to the destitute. Come up with an alternative.

And hey, this isn't a "Bible" thing. ALL ancient societies practiced a form of voluntary slavery in one form or another to deal with the destitute. Milton Meltzer's "Slavery- A World History" covers this in depth with references spanning many cultures. You should do some reading on the subject of slavery that goes back beyond the American stuff..

I think the Americans get upset because they chose the MOST brutal and demeaning manifestation of slavery that existed and rightly feel some guilt but the institution was wide ranging and by far the most dominant form of socio/economic organisation, be it Serf, Peasant, work house, share cropper, indentured servant, voluntary slave , slave labour or chatel slave, for the vast majority of human history.
.............................................................................
No, I understand much of it - I just see a lot wrong with it, and cannot understand

It seems disingenuous in the extreme to be debating in an adversarial manner when one does not know what the hell he is talking about.
YES YES YES....... If God was the one making rules for all mankind and he allowed slavery you would be absolutely right, God would be a monster, but that is not the story that the Bible tells us.
.................................................................................................
This is the third time i have followed this slavery rabbit hole on this forum and this is a far as i have ever got, no one has come up with any alternative . I hope that you will stick with it and give some thoughts to what a viable solution to the problem of captives and conquered peoples in the Bronze age. REMEMBER, this must be a working solution that the Babylonians,Summerians, Egyptians, Assryians etc would also be amenable too.

For all your outrage over the institution of slavery it really shows a poor understanding of the history of the world you live in and of slavery itself, both geo/political and socio/economic. The ancient world and ancient philosophers spent much time and effort trying to unravel that particualar gordian knot and it was not until the "industrial revolution" of the late 1700 early 1800's that finally freed the planet from its economic dependence on forced labour. For all you 'enlightenment types" it was not your good wishes that ended slavery it was the Railroad and the steam engine.

Peace.

 

[nPeace]

Almost right.
The father is also called the husband in the Bible. (Isaiah 62:5)(Isaiah 54:5).
Jesus and God are the same person. For two different men cannot marry the same woman.

How many husbands are they? How many wives are they?
I think there are plenty to go around. No need for two husbands to share one wife. Agreed?

Jehovah has a wife, and Jesus has one.
Jesus' wife is New Jerusalem - note, emphasis on "new". Very important.
So do you know whom Jehovah's wife is?

 

[nPeace]

Sorry @calm I should have given you a hint.
The wife of Jehovah is the mother of the lamb's (Jesus') wife.
I hope you let me know if you want me to answer.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Even if an omnipotent, omniscient, just and loving God exists - were He to ask me to kill my own son (which happens in The Bible, let's remember - so this isn't some "far fetched" scenario), do you know what I'd tell him?

"Get spanked. Ain't happening you pompous horse's behind."

Or something along those lines, showing that, in no way do I feel the need to respect anyone or anything who would make such a request. And if He didn't immediately apologize and explain himself to my satisfaction then our relationship would be over. Over. Simple as that. So you see... even if God exists, I would prize the relationship I have with my son over any relationship I could have with God any day of the week. To gain a place in my heart equal to that of my son, God would need to do A HELL OF A LOT more to foster our relationship. As it stands, can you guess how much He has done? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Now... I've had a lot of people who sound like they have no idea what the hell they are talking about come to me and tell me they are speaking on behalf of God - but that means nothing. Nothing at all. I would never pretend to have a relationship with someone who I only "know" because OTHER PEOPLE have come to me telling me I need a relationship with this other person. That's just asinine. A complete waste of time, effort and emotion.

If you don't prize your fellow man over an entity you can't even be sure exists or not then there is something wrong. Very wrong. With that being a plausibly held mindset by the majority of humans, it is no wonder we don't take care of one another very well. Your fellow human being is more important than God. Period. Even GOD SHOULD BELIEVE SO. If He doesn't, then He isn't very loving toward humans. Honestly now. Do you not prize your own wife, son, daughter OVER yourself? Would you not die for them? Should God demand that we all prize Him above all other things? Shouldn't He instead recognize that other things in other beings lives may be more important than Himself? I certainly realize this - and in my estimation, that makes me leagues more morally aligned than God can ever be. The people who imagined Him didn't give Him a very good starting point - His attributes are simply terrible. I actually feel sorry for the guy. If He exists that is.

There's a lot to impact there. I've also been attacked by Satan and his attacks tend to be on emotional, not intellectual planes IMHO. Be cautious. I see a lot of emotion in what you're saying, and I appreciate your passion, but the Bible says people lose their intellectual compass when they value people/creation more than the Creator.

Issac wasn't a child on the altar, he was an adult, he could have overpowered his ancient father Abraham but volunteered. The Bible says he carried his wood on his shoulders (a picture of Christ in the OT, which my Jewish people says doesn't predict the Christ).

Abraham, likewise, was willing to sacrifice his unique son for God. God the Father did the same.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Matthew 16:28
"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

So where are these 2000 year old Hebrew dudes?

The next verses (in both gospels) is Peter, James and John SEEING something come. Do you remember what they saw?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There's a lot to impact there. I've also been attacked by Satan and his attacks tend to be on emotional, not intellectual planes IMHO. Be cautious. I see a lot of emotion in what you're saying, and I appreciate your passion, but the Bible says people lose their intellectual compass when they value people/creation more than the Creator.

Trust me - my emotions are completely and totally in check in "real life". You'd be completely surprised, I'd imagine, to know how reigned in I keep them. I go for logic and rationality first, assess the situation, come to a logical and completely defensible position and stick to it until (if) I am proved to be wrong. I don't get dramatic, don't yell, don't "break things." Those types of reactions are, in my estimation, signs of abject weakness. If a person can't control their emotions in a conversation, then it usually only strengthens my resolve to stay calm, composed and collected. And guess who comes back asking forgiveness for their behavior when the conversation abruptly ends because they become so ticked off at my rationality (and, more likely, the fact that they can't maintain theirs) that they give up and walk away? It so happens that online I have found that being entirely calm and collected doesn't actually spark people to think. If words are too drab, and don't contain a spark of excitement, they are glossed over, or not even read at all.

There are, quite simply, facts about what I would and would not do. Given a sudden command by a God who has been absent throughout my entire life, my response would easily and quickly be "Who is this joker?" And I feel it is precisely my intellectual calibration that holds human beings as FAR more important than any God concept. God concepts are a dime a dozen. No... let me correct that bit there... they are worthless. Zero of anything of worth for every 6-8 billion god concepts. How's that? That's seems a lot more correct in my estimation.

Issac wasn't a child on the altar, he was an adult, he could have overpowered his ancient father Abraham but volunteered. The Bible says he carried his wood on his shoulders (a picture of Christ in the OT, which my Jewish people says doesn't predict the Christ).

Abraham, likewise, was willing to sacrifice his unique son for God. God the Father did the same.

It's funny how theists say these things as if they matter. There are so many problems with this scenario that it doesn't just get some "Free pass" no matter how you slice it. For example - God wasn't going to have Abraham actually do it - which is one reason it is so ridiculous in the first place. God DID apparently know that it would have been wrong for Abraham to kill his son - so He never intended to let him do it. But don't you see how impossibly stupid that is? Let me break it down:

1. God decides to test Abraham by asking Him to do something even He knows is wrong
2. Abraham complies and decides to do this very wrong thing
3. God stops him so that he doesn't complete the sacrifice
4. God praises Abraham for being willing to do something wrong, just because God asked.

Horrible. Just horrible. If anything, what God had proven was that his followers were mindless zealots, incapable of thinking for themselves and acting on their own instincts. As a leader, is that what you would want? Would you want the people under you to never question your motives and just blindly carry out your orders, expecting that if you ordered them, they must be the best thing to be doing? Isn't that exactly what we chastise dictatorships for?(think Hitler's troops here, and their willingness to commit atrocities against the Jews - and their later attempts to be exonerated because they were "just following orders")

Honestly, I feel that it only takes thinking about these things just a little bit to see how horrible they are. How horrible the prescriptions in The Bible are. How horrible God is if He actually exists and The Bible is accurate in its stories and descriptions of Him. This is not stuff that is "good" for humanity... which is why I don't like it. Doesn't get more simple than that.

By the way - I don't believe in Satan either. So you can stop telling me how he ruined your life any time - unless you can come up with some compelling evidence for his existence as well - which we both know that you cannot do. Oh well... I can't be bothered to care, honestly. Just another unsubstantiated claim that ranks only as highly on the "deserves-attention-meter" as the wildest of conspiracy theories. I honestly don't think that theists understand how wholly some of us do not, at all, need religion, or belief in some "divine power" in our lives. I don't need it at all. Not at all. Not even close. You seriously have no idea - it is hilarious to me when people try and pull the "you know you secretly believe" crap with me. Just a joke. And one that isn't even funny at that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There's a lot to impact there. I've also been attacked by Satan and his attacks tend to be on emotional, not intellectual planes IMHO. Be cautious. I see a lot of emotion in what you're saying, and I appreciate your passion, but the Bible says people lose their intellectual compass when they value people/creation more than the Creator.

Issac wasn't a child on the altar, he was an adult, he could have overpowered his ancient father Abraham but volunteered. The Bible says he carried his wood on his shoulders (a picture of Christ in the OT, which my Jewish people says doesn't predict the Christ).

Abraham, likewise, was willing to sacrifice his unique son for God. God the Father did the same.

I say you lose your moral compass when you value invisible deities over human beings. Same goes for defending slavery.

 

[Moz]

Trust me - my emotions are completely and totally in check in "real life". You'd be completely surprised, I'd imagine, to know how reigned in I keep them. I go for logic and rationality first, assess the situation, come to a logical and completely defensible position and stick to it until (if) I am proved to be wrong. I don't get dramatic, don't yell, don't "break things." Those types of reactions are, in my estimation, signs of abject weakness. If a person can't control their emotions in a conversation, then it usually only strengthens my resolve to stay calm, composed and collected. And guess who comes back asking forgiveness for their behavior when the conversation abruptly ends because they become so ticked off at my rationality (and, more likely, the fact that they can't maintain theirs) that they give up and walk away? It so happens that online I have found that being entirely calm and collected doesn't actually spark people to think. If words are too drab, and don't contain a spark of excitement, they are glossed over, or not even read at all.

There are, quite simply, facts about what I would and would not do. Given a sudden command by a God who has been absent throughout my entire life, my response would easily and quickly be "Who is this joker?" And I feel it is precisely my intellectual calibration that holds human beings as FAR more important than any God concept. God concepts are a dime a dozen. No... let me correct that bit there... they are worthless. Zero of anything of worth for every 6-8 billion god concepts. How's that? That's seems a lot more correct in my estimation.

It's funny how theists say these things as if they matter. There are so many problems with this scenario that it doesn't just get some "Free pass" no matter how you slice it. For example - God wasn't going to have Abraham actually do it - which is one reason it is so ridiculous in the first place. God DID apparently know that it would have been wrong for Abraham to kill his son - so He never intended to let him do it. But don't you see how impossibly stupid that is? Let me break it down:

1. God decides to test Abraham by asking Him to do something even He knows is wrong
2. Abraham complies and decides to do this very wrong thing
3. God stops him so that he doesn't complete the sacrifice
4. God praises Abraham for being willing to do something wrong, just because God asked.

Horrible. Just horrible. If anything, what God had proven was that his followers were mindless zealots, incapable of thinking for themselves and acting on their own instincts. As a leader, is that what you would want? Would you want the people under you to never question your motives and just blindly carry out your orders, expecting that if you ordered them, they must be the best thing to be doing? Isn't that exactly what we chastise dictatorships for?(think Hitler's troops here, and their willingness to commit atrocities against the Jews - and their later attempts to be exonerated because they were "just following orders")

Honestly, I feel that it only takes thinking about these things just a little bit to see how horrible they are. How horrible the prescriptions in The Bible are. How horrible God is if He actually exists and The Bible is accurate in its stories and descriptions of Him. This is not stuff that is "good" for humanity... which is why I don't like it. Doesn't get more simple than that.

By the way - I don't believe in Satan either. So you can stop telling me how he ruined your life any time - unless you can come up with some compelling evidence for his existence as well - which we both know that you cannot do. Oh well... I can't be bothered to care, honestly. Just another unsubstantiated claim that ranks only as highly on the "deserves-attention-meter" as the wildest of conspiracy theories. I honestly don't think that theists understand how wholly some of us do not, at all, need religion, or belief in some "divine power" in our lives. I don't need it at all. Not at all. Not even close. You seriously have no idea - it is hilarious to me when people try and pull the "you know you secretly believe" crap with me. Just a joke. And one that isn't even funny at that.

Hi

Their is fundamental misunderstanding around the sacrifice of Isaac account. It is a deeper and more substantial lesson than merely god being a bully.

The "cultural norm" amongst the Canaanite polities was for one who wished a position of responsibility to sacrifice his first born son.... they continued this practise down to Hannibals day and the final destruction of Carthage. 100 000's of children's bones discovered around the Tophet's of Molech and Baal bear this out. Actually it is believed that Hannibal Barca had an older brother, or possibly a slave, sacrificed by his Father Hamilcar in the 200's bce. That's 2000 years after Abraham and they were still doing it.

Abraham being asked by his God to sacrifice his son would have seemed the "normal" thing to do in the cultural milieu of the time. The point that is being made, and would have been understood by his contemporaries, was that the God of Abraham DID NOT require the sacrifice of human children.

When later Kings of Israel and Judah did indulge in child sacrifice due to the Canaanite influence in the region they were condemned for their actions in part on the strength of the principles established by the account of Abraham and Isaac. Yes it was an extreme lesson but the results were an abhorance of human sacrifice that stayed in the Jewish zeitgeist. The Hebrews were the ONLY polity in the ancient world that did not adopt the practise of human sacrifice in one from or the other.

I don't really care if you think the bible is crap or not but you should at least understand the stories in the context of the world in which they existed. To dismiss the story of Abram and Isaac as mere barbarism is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Peace

 

[tas8831]

Hi

Could not have this God made it a rule - maybe even refer to it as a, gosh, I don't know, Commandment - that 'thou shalt not keep my other human creations as property' or something? And then give these Commandments to ALL nations of the world, rather than just the Hebrews?

Right here is where you run off the rails.

Right - how silly of me to have thought that the Hebrew deity - the one TRUE deity, He Who CREATED the ubiverse and all that, had no ability to proscribe slavery.

This is Genesis stuff, right at the start, do you really have NO IDEA what the Bible is about...

No - because it makes no sense at all to me. But please - use the bible to support the bible, won;t you?

....This passage actually answers quite a few of your points, that's why i quoted it in my initial response but you obviously did not even look at it Gen3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Wow - great parenting!

. There are the TWO sides. Jehovah DOES NOT make rules for satans seed.

Not powerful enough, I guess...

I get that some people enjoy slagging off the Bible but it works much better if you at least know the basic premise of the story.

Right...

Such a great "story" wherein rules for slavery are given - and a great unwitting admission.

.........................................................................

Take their weapons and send them home?
This is your solution for captured soldiers in the Bronze age world. No wonder you put a question mark at the end.REALLY. The "Parole" line was hilarious as well. I actually had a guy once suggest a "Geneva Convention" type arrangement that is sort of like your parole idea.... it takes about 20 seconds to see how that won't work. You really are not serious about trying to understand this in its context are you.

Were I a creator god, I could have willed it thus and all would be good.

But for some reason, that cruel thug deity of the Hebrews seems to enjoy human pain and suffering.


Again, we see you "defending" this thug-god in essence by saying 'thats the way it was back then.'

Back then when only the Hebrews knew of the one true god... Because this one true god was merely the Hebrew's tribal deity.

Got it!

.........................................................................
Yes, I guess you are right - just death and slavery for the poor. Nobody could have possibly come up with anything other than death and slavery....:

Well , YOU, didn't come up with anything that would have addressed the problem.

Well, I am a mere mortal! I am NOT the CREATOR GOD of the UNIVERSE! I did not CREATE a man from dust!

You believe that the Hebrew tribal deity was real - you worship it, even - this creator God with unlimited power - yet tsk tsk me for not having a better plan???

Do you think about these things at all?

The quote about charity is a help but not a socio/ecomonic solution to the destitute. Come up with an alternative.

Oh, so I am supposed to come up with a plan that your creator GOD of the universe couldn't...
Well, nice that you admit how low your expectations of your CREATOR GOD are.

And hey, this isn't a "Bible" thing. ALL ancient societies practiced a form of voluntary slavery in one form or another to deal with the destitute.

Well...

I see little reason to keep going.

You cannot see the absurdity of your desperate position.

You will have us believe that your all-powerful, all-knowing CREATOR GOD did nothing about slavery because, meh, that's the way it was back then.

How sad that Jehovah's worshippers are left making fool so f themselves in His defense.